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Those last five knots....


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Roger's soapbox:

You guys shouldn't have thrown my soapbox out in front of me.blink.gifsmile.gif

 

Now is the time to jump back in this conversation. I was going to stay out of this because there are many landing styles, but there are also way too many smashed CT gear legs.

Yes you can get in big trouble as many (smashed gear) pilots can attest to and in the CT being slow and full flaps with crosswinds. Many of the ruined gear on CT's come from the pilots and CFI's that believe in slow full flap landings all the time. The start of this thread has been all about 5 extra knots. Count them as a blessing because some day you'll wish you had them. It was brought up at the beginning of this thread about 5 knots of extra speed. Trying to be too slow and and do full stall landings even on a calm day can bite you and your pushing your luck on a windy day with full flaps and slow. You are setting yourself up for failure some day going too slow, full flaps (30-40 flaps) in too much crosswind. Can you do these things(?) sure, but for how long and it may one day bite you in the butt and that's all it takes is one time to cost $30k-$80K in damage and have the FAA pay you a visit. The FAA tends to tell pilots that are too slow, full flaps in too much wind to get remedial training. The higher the wind the less the flaps.

When I have crosswinds of 15 from the side or greater it is zero flaps and some throttle right to touch. Approach at 60, round out at 60 and touch at 48-50. With some throttle you have better control over the control surfaces on the tail, with those extra 5 knots you have better surface control over the wings and you aren't near stall so it won't drop out from under you and if you get in trouble you have a little throttle and speed to save your bacon. 30-40 flaps works just fine and you should practice and get used to them (they aren't a big deal), but in calmer winds of 0- 8 mph. For me, and to keep a safety factor in my favor, 15 flaps up to 10-12 and after that 15 and up crosswind, zero flaps. I tend to always leave power to touch. I can land with zero flaps with power, approach at 60, touch at 50 in 20-30 crosswinds all day long and have absolute good solid control.

 

Getting into trouble is usually compounded by poor flight surface control and that comes or is compounded from being too slow. If you need confirmation of this go up to 3K in altitude and do turns and maneuvers at 50-60 with zero to 15 flaps with 2700 rpm. You'll have solid control. Now drop the rpm to idle and do those maneuvers with 30 flaps and 40 knots. The controls are slow and mushy and it could drop out from under you at any time. Good luck and hold on.

Being at 3K with poor speed and control is is one thing, being 2 feet and being in trouble from too much flaps coupled with too slow a speed will have the runway jump up and smite thee. I hate being smited.

For the most part a little extra speed at touch is good and I don't understand why some want to try and touch right as it's ready to fall out from under them with no speed and mushy controls.

 

 

Why take chances when you have many options not to have to call the FAA and then have to fly a Frankenstein plane?

 

 

I have crossed the numbers at 100 mph and so what, you just hold it steady and let the speed bleed, which it does quickly. The touch is no different than if I crossed the numbers at 50.

 

 

Now if we are talking short fields then too much extra speed and lack of flaps isn't good. You can do spot landings at 50-60 mph too. Doesn't make any difference if you hit your spot at 45 or 60, the spot is the spot.

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The thing about these threads is that everyone redefines the question as they go along so that their answer or perspective is always right. This topic is going in at least one other major aviation thread right now with many observations that box the compass and all of which are uttered with sincerity and conviction. What is the inexperienced person to do? Believe the loudest, most persistent or most argumentative?

 

Roger very correctly points to the FAA as final arbiter on questions of this nature, so it is worthwhile to reiterate that use of the APH and the manufacturers guidance are the places for departure on this or any other airplane performance questions. Then we can each advance our own agenda to our heart's content.

 

 

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The best answer.

 

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

 

Just find which way works the best for you and it does help to listen to some with many different experiences. This is how in the early CT days we all learned the better and simpler ways to do things. Many of these questions were hashed out 4-5 years ago, but we always get new CT pilots and it never hurts to talk about them again.

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The last couple of postings probably best summed up this discussion. My goal is to always keep an open mind and to learn how to be safe and fly effectively by listening to other pilots. This forum allows us to learn by taking part in discussions on a diverse list of subjects without leaving our chairs. We can go thru various scenarios of flying and learn from others who have done the experimenting previously while sitting in our chairs too which probably saves a lot of butts and bent equipment. The thoughtful, civil and courteous dialog here is really appreciated. Personally, I will look at landings a lot differently the next time I fly in light of what has been discussed here.

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Roger,

 

All good points.

 

My only caveat would be one from a "slippery slope" perspective.

 

I've seen a tendency for pilots to add a few knots "for comfort", then a few more for "bumpiness", then a few more for the crosswind, then a few more for the mother-in-law, then a few more for lunar phase...you get the idea - pretty soon approaches are being made WAY fast. I've seen it mainly in the Cirrus world recently, but that extra speed carries with it a variety of dangers and concerns - extra runway needed as a matter of course, more inertia* if a swerve starts, more momentum* to dissipate via the brakes if touchdown is also made too fast, possibility of a flat landing followed by at least one bounce, porpoising, that sort of thing.

 

I think the generic 1.3 Vso is a good place to start, modified by the POH. 30% above stall should give plenty of protection while still maintaining controllability. Again, my normal procedure would be to start with full flap landings and get comfortable with them, then try partial flaps and no flaps for versatility.

 

I reserve the right to revise my opinion once I have the chance to fly a CT. Our plans may take us to your neck of the woods for some work on my plane next summer, so maybe I can snag a ride then!

 

 

*one of these words is more correct - I'll leave it to the physics majors to sort out which one is right.

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The original was 5 knots. 60 on approach verses 55 knots. That is well within our normal numbers. You can of course go too far low or high with anything. The mother-in-Law speed add might not be a bad idea. tongue.gif Like Jim pointed out it kind of morphed into other areas and techniques. I'm with Dick to in that this is how we all pick up pointers or new ideas to make our lives a little better or or least look at things with a slightly different perspective and possibly kick our safety factor up one notch. I like our forum because all of us talk, discuss and share our ideas without finger pointing or hostility. On many forums this isn't the case and hostilities and name calling raise their ugly head.

 

We have a great forum and a tight flying comradely membership. This is why we have all grown and mentally prospered with our aircraft and developed good friends here on the forum. smile.gif

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The CTSW has pretty significant adverse yaw, so I assume he means he is turning without coordinating with rudder. it also has significant yaw changes with power changes so you can be slipping easily with power idle, feet on the floor and a left traffic pattern. This little plane does make you learn what your feet are for!

 

Yes, exactly. Using aileron only the ball flies right out to the edge of its travel. I realize I cannot keep this up for more than a short time without turning but for short slips it seems to work. This is so different than the 172, my only other reference point. That airplane is a very reluctant slipper. Required plenty of boot into the opposite rudder to get it to slip.

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Hi Mitch,

 

You shouldn't have any problems slipping this plane. Full rudder and cross control should make it come down like a helicopter. It should slip quite well especially with 30 flaps.

 

I'm getting there, working on the technique. I've already tried the slow flight configurations you've suggested (at altitude) and I can attest to how mushy the controls become with 40 flaps. Convinced me that I wasn't ready to make 40 flap landings yet. Fortunately I don't really need them, so long as my final speed is under control (the subject of the thread as started).

 

As for slips, perhaps leading with the rudder and less aileron is the technique I should try next. Not to be tiresome about it, but with my only reference point being the Cessna, I need to drive into my noggin that you don't need to crank the ailerons all the way over and stand on the opposite rudder to get it to slip. The Cessna's response to that technique is, "You wanted what? Let me think about." Try that in the CT you'd be inverted in a second!

 

BTW, I have to echo a previous remark: this one of the greatest forums anywhere on any topic!

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I don't think the CT would roll on it's back. I've slipped with a pedal all the way to the floor and felt under control. A fun training drill is a slip to landing from downwind midfield. Use 30 degrees of flaps and you can set the plane down on a dime.

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I suppose what I'm saying is I don't really know what would happen in a full authority slip in the CT. It just felt like an incipient spin to me, the couple of times I tried it at altitude. I've watched Stearman drivers slip down to the numbers as if on an elevator. I don't suppose a CT can perform that impressive feat (one of the times when two wings is better than one) but I'm sure it can do more in that department than I've demanded of it so far.

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The CT slips really nice at all flap settings and won't do anything nasty as long as you don't get it near stall, which you would not do to any plane. The ailerons are very effective in the CT so usually people try to out guess the roll required and end up banking way to much. Start with the rudder and go light on the stick when your slipping the CT. You can ease into full rudder with very little stick input, pitch for the right airspeed with power at idle and drop like an elevator.

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In my experience, Cessna Owners and Pilots Association is considerably better than this one because it has many more highly experience and well-qualified people posting on it. There can be more disagreement, but it is generally (with a couple of exceptions) OK. Everyone uses their real name. It costs $65 year and has very good technical support on a plethora of Cessna and general aviation issues. There is less individual interpretation and extrapolation of rules on COPA. If you say something about an FAR or manufacturer's guidance, you will be called on it if you are not right. There is, of course, a difference of opinion on some topics, such as lean-of-peak operations. And this is not to say that some don't disagree with the manufacturer's guidance, but you will not see people recommending you do things that are not in the maintenance manual, for example, which does happen here.

 

This forum has more potential than POA, AOPA and the like, no doubt about that.

 

 

 

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The CT slips really nice at all flap settings and won't do anything nasty as long as you don't get it near stall, which you would not do to any plane. The ailerons are very effective in the CT so usually people try to out guess the roll required and end up banking way to much. Start with the rudder and go light on the stick when your slipping the CT. You can ease into full rudder with very little stick input, pitch for the right airspeed with power at idle and drop like an elevator.

 

Good stuff. Sounds like what I was doing. I will try leading with the rudder and adding aileron and see how that works. Thanks!

 

Jim, I'm a relative newcomer here (as to the world of CTs) so I will steer clear of the inevitable personal politics found in any discussion board and just say that I've found this forum to be extraordinarily friendly and helpful. Besides, I've been around aviation long enough to know that pilots tend to be people with strong convictions who are not shy about expressing them.

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In my experience, Cessna Owners and Pilots Association is considerably better than this one because it has many more highly experience and well-qualified people posting on it. There can be more disagreement, but it is generally (with a couple of exceptions) OK. Everyone uses their real name. It costs $65 year and has very good technical support on a plethora of Cessna and general aviation issues. There is less individual interpretation and extrapolation of rules on COPA. If you say something about an FAR or manufacturer's guidance, you will be called on it if you are not right. There is, of course, a difference of opinion on some topics, such as lean-of-peak operations. And this is not to say that some don't disagree with the manufacturer's guidance, but you will not see people recommending you do things that are not in the maintenance manual, for example, which does happen here.

 

This forum has more potential than POA, AOPA and the like, no doubt about that.

 

 

Maybe I'm missing something here Jim, but I've yet to find to much helpful information concerning the CT on the Cessna forum or any other for that matter. Maintenance issues from Roger and flying technique from others have been most helpful.

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The publication, Aviation Safety, had an article on slips in the last issue and has a long and carefully-written letter on slips in the current issue. Although not perfect, I found both helpful. One good point was that slips do not have to be made to full rudder stop. The amount of slip can be adjusted to the specific requirement at the time.

 

I use slips regularly in my CTsw (most often with 15 degrees of flaps) when I want to loose altitude on final without adding more flaps or gaining airspeed. I slip the plane at 55-60kts and have experienced no stability/control problems. I first practiced slips at these speeds at altitude to be sure that I was familiar with how the airplane handled this maneuver. Given differences in rigging, weight, etc., your experience may vary.

 

I also slip the airplane as needed during crosswind landings (as do many/most pilots of light airplanes) to stay on the centerline and maintain alignment of the fuselage with the runway (i.e., to prevent side loading on the gear).

 

Fred

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Fred has a good explanation of how and when to use the forward slip (lose altitude while maintaining the track) and   a side slip (compensate for a crosswind while maintaining aircraft heading to stay lined up with the runway).  You have to take the forward slip out before landing, of course, to avoid side loading.  You do that either with the "kick out" technique or by transferring to a side slip.

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Fred has a good explanation of how and when to use the forward slip (lose altitude while maintaining the track) and   a side slip (compensate for a crosswind while maintaining aircraft heading to stay lined up with the runway)..

 

I want to emphasize something implicit in the above but worth stating...

 

There is NO difference aerodynamically between a forward slip and a side slip. Both involve exactly the same crossed controls.

 

The only thing distinguishing them is the plane's flight path over the ground, and the position of the nose relative to something on the ground.

 

Before we ever do crosswind landings, I take my students to a safe altitude and find a road perpendicular to the wind. We start by flying along in the requisite crab, then I have the student feed in enough bank into the wind to prevent drift, while keeping aligned with the road using rudder*. Then back to the crab. Do that a dozen times or so and it starts to sink in. That's the side slip.

 

Then, go higher, line up with a road parallel to the wind, come back to idle and smoothly apply full rudder while lowering the nose and using the ailerons to "drive" the airplane left or right to stay over the road. If necessary, I'll "help" with the rudder - students can be kinda shy about any full control deflection. That's the forward slip.

 

Like someone mentioned previously, I like to come in high enough that even with full flap (in most planes) I'll still be in a position to fine tune the approach with small (or sometimes non-so-small) slips. Works for me.

 

 

*in general, I'm not a proponent of either aileron or rudder "first". Smoothly combining them is the goal, and I think from the start they should be fed in in a coordinated, uncoordinated way - if you get my drift!

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Eddie, thanks for the example of forward and side slip. I always enjoy revisiting these things. It is good to go back to basics occasionally to stay sharp. I'm going to practice some side and forward slips next time I go up, I don't care to do slips since it puts me into an unusual attitude but I do them anyway and stay proficient. If I come in high, normally 40 flaps on my CTSW allows me to quickly loose altitude, similar to doing slips. If not, I dial in some forward slip. My normal landing in xwinds starts with a crab on final with a transition to a slde slip to finish out the landing. Here's a website I found which has many videos that demonstrate "unusual attitude" flying. The guy in the video is really smooth. I keep saying that I'm going to get a few hours to gain spin recovery knowledge. It's time I did this. The link for videos follows.

http://www.bruceair.com/stall-spin/stalls.htm

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Eddie,

 

Thanks for the further explanation on slips. You are right and I probably should have added it but your explanation was very useful.

 

I will side slip to either side as dictated by the wind, but confess that I prefer a forward slip with the left wing down, probably because I use it on base-final and because it gives good visibility. Anyway; I've always enjoyed doing slips.

 

 

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I appear to have started a bit of a debate!

 

I'm aware (and certainly was taught) to pitch for airspeed. I suppose the heart of my question is how to get this to work as effectively on the CT as it did for me in the Cessna. I think a lot of this comes down to feel; the CT is so much lighter on the controls and less draggy than even the C-150s I flew in training. This is especially a factor in the flare when even small stick inputs can have dramatic effects. I am concentrating on making small incremental inputs.

 

Since I'm generally attempting to make a dead-stick landing from abeam the numbers, my final is probably shorter than what most of you are attempting at your airports. At SZP we don't extend downwind further unless traffic requires. Accordingly the final is nothing close to 1.5 miles. We are typically turning final approximately 1,500 feet from the threshold, from about 500-600 AGL. That's a fairly steep approach by most standards but much lower than that and you get too close a look at the telephone poles. Again not a problem in the Cessna -- a slip on short final takes care of any extra altitude. I'm not finding that this works with the CT, not yet anyway.

 

Roger: Trust me, I'm not trying to win any spot landing contests. I'm trying to keep my airspeed controlled on final. I'm sure you'll agree that this has an impact on landing performance (especially in the CT). Sometimes I find that airspeed is increasing on short final when it should be holding steady or decreasing, and the CT doesn't seem to bleed it off quickly by raising the nose.

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