Brake Issue

[mocfly]

Group,

I have been noticing of late that I have to pump the brakes at least 4-5 times to get enough pressure to slow down, then another a few more to get it to stop. We just came back from Kissimmee yesterday and it felt like it was never gonna come up to pressure. Must say I got a little worried as we approached to t- hangers.

 

I have checked the brake fluid level and it's ok. Not sure if I need to bleed the system or not. If I do need to bleed the system is there a written procedure out that outlines this?

Thanks all

Chris

[Roger Lee]

Hi Chris,

 

Now you know what happens to many of our Marc brakes. They will only get worse. That's why so many of us have gone to Matco's and just one reason why FD changed to Matco in Jan. 2009.

It has nothing to do with your fluid level. It is a by product of a smaller volume master cyl, an ass backwards 4 generations old attempt at a floating disc and a solid mount caliper, a spring in the pads that hold the pads away from the disc, then wheels that flex with different tire pressures and crummy pads that fade too much with heat. You may get some relief if you remove the spring from the pads. It takes ten minutes and you don't have to remove the pants. Take out the two screws that hold the pads in place, toss the spring and put the screws and pads back in place. A Matco master cyl. will help, but you're still fighting the other inefficiencies. (don't force me to use another big word like this)

[Jim]

Don't waste your time bleeding. Won't help.

 

You can either get the Matco brakes installed or learn the tricks of keeping the Marc brakes working. If you want to keep the Marc brakes, you need to change the pads if they are worn, remove the rotor shoulder bolts, clean them and the holes in the rotor, lightly grease them and replace them. I've had my share of problems with the Marc brakes, but I've opted to keep them. They get the cleaning and greasing treatment every annual and pad replacement every couple of years and they are doing fine.

[mocfly]

Guys

What is required to change and get the matco's installed? Cost?

Thanks

Chris

[Roger Lee]

Hi Chris,

Labor is 3.5 to 4.5 hrs. To change. Cost depends on whether it is an LS or SW. Cost is between $880-$960 for parts.Parts include: new master cyl, (more volume and almost twice the pressure), better more stable wheels, new disc and calipers (setup the right way with the disc solid and the calipers floating), you get to use 90 degree stems on the inner tubes which makes checking the pressure easier. Tapered roller bearings which are far superior to the standard round bearing. Brake pads that don't fade away under a little heat and that will stop you. They will hold the plane still under full throttle on the ground. They are adjustable for toe in in the maint and out and camber unlike the Marc brakes.There are pictures of the Matco's in the maint. Threads.Need I say more.

 

 

[Rogerck]

Roger (Lee),

 

Regarding removing the springs from the Marc pads, exactly what does this do? Since this (lousy) system was designed with the springs, is there any issue in removing them?

 

Also, what are the specific parts and process to change out to the Matco master cylinder? Maybe this is already posted somewhere.

 

Thanks,

 

Rogerck

[mocfly]

Roger,

Are there intermediate things to do which will marginally increase the response? We just spent 3+k on the mounts and asking for another 1k plus is not doable right now. If there are some things we can do please let me know where to purchase the parts.

Thanks

Chris

[Roger Lee]

Hi Chris,

 

First remove those springs. The only side effect is some ticking noise during taxi from the disc and pads touching. It has no functional issue just a ticking noise. Second the Matco master cylinder is about $124 and is a direct drop in replacement, this will help too. If you have an LS you may not even hear the ticking noise.

[Rogerck]

Does anyone have the Matco master cylinder model number on hand?

 

Rogerck

[FredG]

I fly a 2006 CTsw that has the original Marc brakes. Two years ago my mechanic removed the caliper springs (that spread the pads) and the brake lever response improved substantially (no more pumping). This one change made the braking action much more direct and positive. Roger is right, when taxiing I hear a slight metallic sound since the pads now lightly touch the floating discs. Overall, I am very pleased with this simple and inexpensive modification.

[Roger Lee]

The Matco master cylinder part # is MCMC-4CT.

 

Anyone wanting to replace the master cyl. let me know and I'll tell you the tips & tricks.

[sandpiper]

I resisted the change to Matco for as long as I could -too long. In fact, in my final approach GUMP checklist, since we don't have a constant speed prop, I changed the "P" from prop to PUMP because if I forgot to do that I would not have brakes. So, don't fight it, don't fool around with trying to make the originals work, just get the Matco conversion done. You'd I be glad you did.

 

 

[Mike Koerner]

I was giving rides for charity as part of a community relations fair at a local airport. They had a flagman guiding the ride planes in close to the passenger waiting area for faster loading and unloading. He waves me forward until he's just a few feet in front of the prop and then crosses his batons for me to stop. But with all the excitement of the air show, and me trying to explain something to my last passenger, I forgot I had to pump four times before anything happens. I just about chopped that man to pieces. That's when I decided to get the Matcos.

Mike Koerner

[Runtoeat]

I now have over 1,000 landings since installing the Matco brakes, axles and wheels with no concerns (and no pumping) and very little wear on the pads.

[Roger Lee]

I'll be doing another Matco conversion tomorrow. That puts me somewhere in the 40's for number of Matco brake installs on CT's, both SW's and LS's. Back in May of 2007 I almost hit a fence with my 2006 CTSW in Washington thanks to the old Marc brakes. Those Marc brakes back then were only 5 months old and when the pumping starts it's only a matter of time before they just go out or you forget to pump one day and you hit something. I knew right then and there those brakes had to go. Matco's were then set up for the CT between me and George the owner of Matco and I have never had an issue or looked back since then. Never had to worry about any more fences either.

Matco's have come stock on CT's since Jan. 2009. CT's. The Matco front wheel was added at that time too. This is better than the Marc front wheel in keeping the tire from rotating and pulling the stem. The tire and tube has much more surface contact with the wheel to keep it from turning when the pressure may be a little lower than normal. Your same front wheel axle can be used, but they have a different length spacer. The spacers are dirt cheap.

[Rogerck]

What is the process for breaking in new brake pads and is it the same for Marc and Matco? I believe my RV6 had Matco brakes and the process was to burn them in with several high speed taxis.

 

Rogerck

[Roger Lee]

The break in is the same and they will continue to get better over the next 6 flights or so. I tell people with new Matco's not to baby them the next few flights and use them. If you do nothing when you install a set of Matco's and others you may loose up to 50%. So a break in is always warranted.

[mocfly]

Roger,

I expect to have a new Matco master cylinder in my hands by this weekend and would like some tips for install if you could be so kind.

Thanks

Chris

[Roger Lee]

Hi Chris,

 

There is definitely a tip or two. Please call me at 520-349-7056. To long to do it here.

[Tip]

Chris,

What's your experience going into KISM? What FBO do you use? I have a home inside of the traffic pattern but have never flown there.

[mocfly]

Tip,

Its a busy airport for sure. We used Kissimmee Jet Center. As soon as we pulled in they asked if we had made arrangements for a rental car and after we said no they had one to us before we had the seats out unloading our luggage. Great place fantastic service.

Chris

[Tad Olmsted]

I've changed them over to Matco, licka-dee-split. Call me if you need any help Chris.

[mocfly]

Thanks Tad.

[Tony & Rose]

OK kids -- let's see if I have company on this situation - - -

(CTsw. December 2006, 1050hr, 2500+ landings, always hangared)

Over the last 18 months, I have had three brake line leak/failure on our right side. About 1/2 inch to 1.5 inch out from the brake unit. The first two times we replaced the tubing from the brake to the junction in the cabin. (Tubing supplied by FD-USA for first change-out.) The last time we removed the 'leaking section' and re-attached.

Has anyone else experienced brake tube failure, or leak plroblems, in that general area???

This is driving us a little on the nuts side.

Thanks,

[Roger Lee]

Hi Tony,

Are you using the red 5600 brake fluid? Regular DOT auto fluid will eat holes in the brake line. The white tube brake line may have a service life, after all you have over a 1000 hrs, but my guess is it is all the training and 2500 landings. Lots of pressure up and down in the lines.The other thing that comes to mind is the tubing is supposed to have a plastic tube protective cover where it comes out of the leg fairing. It is also supposed to have a protective cover where the brake line goes down into the leg fairing inside the baggage compartment. There should also be a little slack and they should not be bow string tight.