Pattern speeds/power settings

[EFB]

My apologies, I entered this video in a new thread, after it was entered here.  Sorry for the confusion.  

[FlyingMonkey]

3 hours ago, AGLyme said:

So, after watching the embedded (below) AvWeb video, I started researching in depth about the "recipe" for landing the CT and this string was the very best teaching tool I could find.  No surprise since you CT pioneers have learned the very best techniques in all kinds of conditions.  A valuable string for me as I am getting into the CT soup soon when the plane arrives in Oct.

 

That's a great video, and Mr. Bertorelli nailed it in his discussion of the Flight Design airplanes at the end.  Speed control is the number one issue, too much speed being worse than too little.  As Paul said, "learn to land the damn airplane".  That will take practice, and if you have access to somebody with experience with whatever LSA you plan to fly, use that and get trained up.

[AGLyme]

An interesting study to perform re the CT metrics is by plane model.  The SW and LS are different in weight and length.  You veterans would know if landing and TO handling characteristics are exactly the same or radically different.  

Paul makes a good point about training.  My training Transition from a Cub to a Kappa recently has been interesting.  Glad I trained in a Cub first.  The Kappa requires a lot of rudder compared to a 152 and 172... but somewhat similar to a Cub.  The next transition is the CT.  Landing “the damned thing” will be another science to learn... Forewarned is forearmed.  

[WmInce]

I have flown both. Trained in the CTLS . . . owned and operated a CTSW for last 4 years.

IMHO, takeoffs and landings are not exactly the same, but they are not radically different.

i think the CTSW is slightly more pitch sensitive, due to the shorter lengh (14 inches) of the empennage.

The CTSW has different landing gear. Struts are aluminum alloy tubes. Robust in strength but stiffer, with less cushion upon landing.

Both are fine airplanes.

 

[Tom Baker]

5 minutes ago, WmInce said:

The CTSW has different landing gear. Struts are aluminum alloy tubes.

The landing gear on the CTSW is not a hollow tube. They are counterbored a few inches on the ends, but are otherwise solid aluminum. At least all that I have removed, inspected, or replaced.

[Tom Baker]

Also the CTSW tends to get a little more squirrely on the ground with excess speed.

[WmInce]

7 minutes ago, Tom Baker said:

The landing gear on the CTSW is not a hollow tube. They are counterbored a few inches on the ends, but are otherwise solid aluminum. At least all that I have removed, inspected, or replaced.

Okay, thanks Tom. I did not know that.

[Roger Lee]

4 hours ago, Tom Baker said:

Also the CTSW tends to get a little more squirrely on the ground with excess speed.

Only if you quit flying on the ground. I have demonstrated all kinds of speeds on the ground. This is solely depended on the pilot. Just like who can land it crosswinds at 25 knts - 35 knts. Skill level is everything. I never see anyone dropping a plane with a few more knots of speed, but lots have proven going too slow and dropping them has caused the LSA industry to take notice.

[FlyingMonkey]

You have to be very subtle on the pedals at high speed on the ground.  Slight pressures is all it takes.  If you start to push hard on the pedals you are going to lose directional control, or tip and scrape a wingtip.  At least on the CTSW.

[Ed Cesnalis]

46 minutes ago, FlyingMonkey said:

You have to be very subtle on the pedals at high speed on the ground.  Slight pressures is all it takes.  If you start to push hard on the pedals you are going to lose directional control, or tip and scrape a wingtip.  At least on the CTSW.

I do not permit my nose-wheel to contact the ground at high speed.  At high speeds I steer with the rudder not the nose-wheel.  At high speed I am often better off on a single main then both at first.

Someone has mentioned a pitching moment that causes unwanted nose-wheel contact and that pitching is possible but not normal.  If you settle on your mains in a landing attitude it is easy and intuitive to remain balanced on the mains but if you settle in a flatter attitude or settle as the pitch is lowering you can get the momentum to far forward and the nose wheel won't stay up.

[Tom Baker]

10 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

Only if you quit flying on the ground. I have demonstrated all kinds of speeds on the ground. This is solely depended on the pilot. Just like who can land it crosswinds at 25 knts - 35 knts. Skill level is everything. I never see anyone dropping a plane with a few more knots of speed, but lots have proven going too slow and dropping them has caused the LSA industry to take notice.

Pilot ability doesn't change aerodynamics. We are talking about a comparison between a CTSW and CTLS. A CTSW is a little more squirrely on the ground, and it is amplified at higher speed. That is why the landing gear on the CTLS was slightly moved aft.

[Tom Baker]

2 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

You have to be very subtle on the pedals at high speed on the ground.  Slight pressures is all it takes.  If you start to push hard on the pedals you are going to lose directional control, or tip and scrape a wingtip.  At least on the CTSW.

That is caused by the flaps trying to lift the trailing edge of the wing. It transfers weight to the nose wheel making it less stable.

[Roger Lee]

"Pilot ability doesn't change aerodynamics."

No, but it does change how the plane is handled on the ground fast or slow.

" flaps trying to lift the trailing edge of the wing"

Sensitivity depends on flap settings. Remember you're still flying just touching the ground.  You have the stick to control nose wheel pressure. Good fine experienced motor skills make a big difference on the pedals and the stick.

When I flew helicopters at first I was all over. Poor fine motor skills. When I had lots of time I could knock over a small traffic cone, pick it up with the skid, set it some place else and then tip it back up. It's all fine motor control.

I can change aerodynamics. I have a stick, pedals, flaps and ailerons. That's how we fly is by changing current aerodynamics. Works on the ground as well. 

Anyone can make a slow or fast landing a squirrely mess.

[EFB]

I have a question for the experienced folks:  I am hoping to take my checkride on Sept. 1 in a CTLS. I am worried about landing on or within 400 feet of a target (but not before that point) on normal landings and within 200 feet on short field landings.  This is the standard I am supposed to hit.  I find I often float too far to achieve that.  I’ve been trying various things per the POH - flaps 30 degrees, airspeed on final ~53 knots, engine power idle last half of the final (say from 200’ altitude till runway).  When I am flying by myself (say 180 pounds less than max weight) this seems to result in a lot of float.  Even with my instructor in the plane (i.e. - I am at 1,320 pounds, +0/-50), it seems like too much float for the normal landing requirement.  (Of course the plane still lands fine, just not necessarily predictable enough on the touchdown point to hit the standard on the test.)

For short field landings, the requirement is “within 200 feet beyond or on the specified point,...”

My CTLS actually has flap settings of 30 & 35 degrees, by the way.

I am thinking of trying 35 degree flaps, and an airspeed of 48 knots on final for the “normal” landing, and perhaps 45 knots on the “short field” landing.  Although 45 knots is getting a bit close to the stall speed; not much room for error.  This at max weight (i.e. - during test).  Later today I may experiment with these speeds, minus about 2 or 3 knots, by myself (say 180 pounds less than max weight).

So, the question is:  does anyone have advice?  Specifically, at either 30 or 35 degrees of flaps, what airspeeds and power settings on short final at max gross weight do you recommend to achieve the standards?  Or any other advice?  Thank you in advance and best wishes to all.

[Ed Cesnalis]

7 minutes ago, EFB said:

I have a question for the experienced folks:  I am hoping to take my checkride on Sept. 1 in a CTLS. I am worried about landing on or within 400 feet of a target (but not before that point) on normal landings and within 200 feet on short field landings.  This is the standard I am supposed to hit.  I find I often float too far to achieve that.  I’ve been trying various things per the POH - flaps 30 degrees, airspeed on final ~53 knots, engine power idle last half of the final (say from 200’ altitude till runway).  When I am flying by myself (say 180 pounds less than max weight) this seems to result in a lot of float.  Even with my instructor in the plane (i.e. - I am at 1,320 pounds, +0/-50), it seems like too much float for the normal landing requirement.  (Of course the plane still lands fine, just not necessarily predictable enough on the touchdown point to hit the standard on the test.)

For short field landings, the requirement is “within 200 feet beyond or on the specified point,...”

My CTLS actually has flap settings of 30 & 35 degrees, by the way.

I am thinking of trying 35 degree flaps, and an airspeed of 48 knots on final for the “normal” landing, and perhaps 45 knots on the “short field” landing.  Although 45 knots is getting a bit close to the stall speed; not much room for error.  This at max weight (i.e. - during test).  Later today I may experiment with these speeds, minus about 2 or 3 knots, by myself (say 180 pounds less than max weight).

So, the question is:  does anyone have advice?  Specifically, at either 30 or 35 degrees of flaps, what airspeeds and power settings on short final at max gross weight do you recommend to achieve the standards?  Or any other advice?  Thank you in advance and best wishes to all.

there's 2 ways I use to hit the numbers.  

• Normally (I use 30* and a closed throttle from abeam the numbers) I do some forward slipping to 'fine tune' and nail the target.
• Most accurate is to aim short and use just enough throttle to make the runway. 

[Roger Lee]

Since Ed has chimed in here is another thing that should be clarified. Ed thinks any thing over stall at 30 flaps is too much speed. (That's okay Ed. Personal preference). Then some think anything over 50 knots is excessive. Some believe anything over 60 knots is excessive. What is excessive and out of ones skill level may not be for the next.

So you have to define both extra and or excessive to compare.

Can a person land successfully at stall all the time and at 60 all the time?

The answer is yes.

 

Each one carries with it its own aerodynamics on the fuselage. each requires a different mental and physical skill set. They are both doable and we all do it every day around the world in our CT's.

 

[Roger Lee]

This debate is extremely similar to when the guys in the UK said you couldn't land the CT in a 300 M (992 ft) field unless the idle was set down around 1550 rpm. I challenged them on this. I went up to another field and marked of 1000 ft. I made 6 landings at 3000 rpm and all easily within their 300 M. I changed the aerodynamics between their landing procedure and mine.

Are there better ways to do things under certain conditions. Absolutely.

[EFB]

Ed Cesnalis said “... Most accurate is to aim short and use just enough throttle to make the runway.“

Thank you.  I shall try that.  It had occurred to me but I have not practiced it enough.  But, still, even while doing this the airplane is at some speed during final approach at 30 or 35 degree flaps.  What speed do people recommend to minimize float?  Thanks in advance to everyone for the advice!

[Roger Lee]

Everyone’s preferences are between highs and lows and full flaps and minimal flaps. If it works for you then it’s all good.

[Ed Cesnalis]

3 hours ago, EFB said:

What speed do people recommend to minimize float

Float is a demonstration of too much speed. If you are getting your stick to the aft stop and still floating begin reducing speed.

You can move your aiming point back a little and plan on floating a bit to the numbers.

 

[Ed Cesnalis]

4 hours ago, Roger Lee said:

What is excessive and out of ones skill level may not be for the next

When you CT has 3 or even 2 wheels on the ground and flying speed it can be overcome by sheer. This is not a skill level thing its a lack of control authority.  Once you have the controls postioned correctly and to the stops there is nothing more you can do no matter your 'skill level'.

[JLang]

4 hours ago, EFB said:

I am thinking of trying 35 degree flaps, and an airspeed of 48 knots on final for the “normal” landing, and perhaps 45 knots on the “short field” landing.  Although 45 knots is getting a bit close to the stall speed; not much room for error.l.

 

4 hours ago, Ed Cesnalis said:

there's 2 ways I use to hit the numbers.  

• Normally (I use 30* and a closed throttle from abeam the numbers) I do some forward slipping to 'fine tune' and nail the target.
• Most accurate is to aim short and use just enough throttle to make the runway. 

No way I'd come in at 45kts at max weight.  That's one very small gust or wind shift away from a hard bounce, or worse.  When heavy, I'm about 54kts.  When light, 50kts, maybe 48 for short field.  Of course, this assumes no gust factor.  I would also expect the DPE to jump all over 45kts since it's pretty far from the 1.3x rule of thumb.

When I was a student practicing short field landings, I found it very helpful to come in with a small amount of power, especially with greater than 15 flaps.  As Ed says, if you find yourself floating further than your intended touchdown point, aim shorter next time, using throttle to adjust.  It's most efficient to close throttle abeam the numbers and leave it that way, but that takes a lot of practice to nail, and you won't get "extra credit" for it in your checkride.

[Ben2k9]

You just need to practice those landings and come up with little rules of thumb like: abeam of threshold, bleed off speed and get to 15deg flaps, then turn base 300’ below pattern altitude, then turn final 600’ below pattern, then put in full flaps and hit your target landing spot. See how that works out and then adjust accordingly. Once you get that figured out you should get more consistent. 

[Ed Cesnalis]

2 hours ago, Ben2k9 said:

You just need to practice those landings and come up with little rules of thumb like: abeam of threshold, bleed off speed and get to 15deg flaps, then turn base 300’ below pattern altitude, then turn final 600’ below pattern, then put in full flaps and hit your target landing spot. See how that works out and then adjust accordingly. Once you get that figured out you should get more consistent. 

a fine plan for sure

fore the sake of simplicity

• arrive abeam the numbers at 80kts
  • close throttle
  • deploy flaps and wait
    • at 62 kts deploy landing flaps
  • put nose down and trim pressure off
    • CTSW to level wingtips
• turn base and complete approach trimmed for 55kt

level off to avoid hitting the ground and pull the stick back to the stop

touchdown on numbers

if judgement is off add some forward slip or throttle on final

[EFB]

Guys - thank you.  Some good things to think about.  I will be practicing tomorrow, weather permitting. Thanks again.