josjonkers Posted October 14, 2012 Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 If the power is pulled to idle downwind abeam the numbers with a +600 AGL pattern, then yes, finals are about as short as they come. The last notch of flaps has to be added a few seconds after turning base or you aren't doing it. Well maybe that is part of your problem. Try to fly a slightly longer final and become more stabilized. Worth a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
round_peg Posted October 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 Well maybe that is part of your problem. Try to fly a slightly longer final and become more stabilized. Worth a try. We don't fly loose patterns here because of the terrain. In any case the question isn't about the approach, or even the round out or flare, all which are stable. The question is about the rollout and I believe the answer is: more flaps in crosswinds requires more aileron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted October 14, 2012 Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 I'm impressed at the number of misconceptions in this thread and the year plus avoidance of full flaps. Bullets below are various comments that you made with replies by me.. a year-plus of almost nothing but 15° flap landings - Ask Fast Eddie about "rule of primacy" Frankly not a lot of use for more than 15° flaps here in a CT Should we only land slowly on short runways? You are in a confined area with obstacles on approach. I would do virtually all of my landings with full flaps. The landing is right on the centerline, pointed down the runway, so all the inputs needed to compensate for the crosswind are already applied. Another full deflection input (hold it till you turn) is now called for. That quartering crosswind from the right pushes you off the centerline to the left. The wind will cause you to drift left but turn right. You were talking about a left turning tendency, that didn't make sense a drift tendency does and goes along with the right wing getting light. The last notch of flaps has to be added a few seconds after turning base or you aren't doing it. Thats just silly, you can deploy at will. I might use the wires as a clue and as soon as I have them cleared I could then steepen my angle with full flaps, or I might deploy full flaps a few seconds beyond abeam the numbers for a nice steep descent. nobody really does a "long" final, unless they are from out of the area. We fly very tight patterns. All the other aircraft are flying tight patterns which is normal pattern for a CT. Mitch, I'm not trying to give you a hard time its just that I know that full flaps are quite useful. Drift control: have a look at this video, the touch and go on one wheel demonstrates a high level of crosswind control, at SZP enough right stick to keep that left wheel light and the right firm is what you want to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted October 14, 2012 Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 Charlie, Great flying in that video! Is that you? When doing and teaching wheel landings in my Citabrias, I found they were somewhat easier with a small crosswind. If I touched down on one wheel, I found the plane less likely to "bounce" back in the air. For good or ill, I found myself feeling for the runway with one wheel (normally the right) even with no crosswind. Possibly a bad habit, but it made for more consistent wheel landings, for me at least. To state the obvious, if one lands more slowly with full flaps, then of course more aileron is needed - all the flight controls become less effective at slower speeds. As an instructor, one thing I see a lot and have to guard for is relaxation right after touchdown. Where aileron should be gradually increasing to full deflection, it's often relaxed instead. Not necessarily what's going on here, but worth guarding against regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
round_peg Posted October 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 Now I'm really sorry I brought up this entire question. I was trying to avoid reopening the how much flaps debate as I know from reading these boards over the past year or so that CT'ers are in definite camps on this question. I am not in one or the other of the camps, as my posts should have made clear. I was asking a very specific question about the impact of added flaps on directional control in the roll-out. I think I have the answer, or at least something else to try next time. And with all due respect, I don't need lessons in flying at my home airport, where I've done thousands of landing over last 15 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted October 14, 2012 Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 Charlie, Great flying in that video! Is that you? ... No thats not me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted October 14, 2012 Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 I was trying to avoid reopening the how much flaps debate ... But you said: "Frankly not a lot of use for more than 15° flaps here in a CT" ... and yout titled the thread "Ye Olde Flaps Question" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted October 14, 2012 Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 Hi Mitch, "I was asking a very specific question about the impact of added flaps on directional control in the roll-out." "more flaps in crosswinds requires more aileron." I believe your right. and it would be more or less depending on where the wind is coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted October 14, 2012 Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 Now I'm really sorry I brought up this entire question. Don't be sorry. Threads creep - its just an internet fact. But even as they drift off topic, they can still be a springboard for discussion of other relevant and not-so-relevant issues. And both posters and lurkers may even learn something new. And with all due respect, I don't need lessons in flying at my home airport, where I've done thousands of landing over last 15 years. Probably not. But pride goeth before a fall. And even if you "don't need lessons", others may benefit from the discussion. Just sayin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josjonkers Posted October 14, 2012 Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 Now I'm really sorry I brought up this entire question. I was trying to avoid reopening the how much flaps debate as I know from reading these boards over the past year or so that CT'ers are in definite camps on this question. I am not in one or the other of the camps, as my posts should have made clear. I was asking a very specific question about the impact of added flaps on directional control in the roll-out. I think I have the answer, or at least something else to try next time. And with all due respect, I don't need lessons in flying at my home airport, where I've done thousands of landing over last 15 years. No regrets required. We all like to talk about our passion in life and everyone has an opinion and story to share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted October 14, 2012 Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 I don't squeak my CT in very often like the guy in the video. Listening to the sounds during the touch and go reminds me that we have stealth aircraft. No one hears me when I'm doing a flyover of someone's house! My buddy Phil and I carry small compressed air horns in our CT's so we can poke them out a window and honk at the house to let the friend know it's time to get in the car and go meet us at the airport! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
round_peg Posted October 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 Don't be sorry. Threads creep - its just an internet fact. Understood, and it was partly my fault being responsive to discussions that were unrelated to my original question. That was taken as an invitation to turn the question into something it never was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted October 14, 2012 Report Share Posted October 14, 2012 ...My buddy Phil and I carry small compressed air horns in our CT's so we can put them out our windows and honk at our friend' houses s... You sir are a menace! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted November 8, 2012 Report Share Posted November 8, 2012 Mitch, I experienced the left turn tendency landing in South Lake Tahoe 2 days ago. Winds were calm so I sure can't blame a cross wind. Here's what happened, 30 degree landing that was working out really sweet and I had time where the stick was back to the stop before the nose wheel finally settled. In that state I assume I was slower than normal because I don't get to hold the stick all the way back while my mains are on the runway. I assume that as I slowed it took more and more left rudder to keep me tracking strait ( I say I assume because I pay attention to the sight picture and don't think about the rudder position ) and when the nose came down I went left pretty hard and it took a meaningful correction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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