sandpiper Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 Perhaps deviating from the original intent of this post: If you are operating at a non towered airport and not communicating with ATC, must you comply with traffic patterns established for that airport? If published for only left turns, can you legally depart or arrive using right turns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 Dig deeper. There is an answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 Perhaps deviating from the original intent of this post: If you are operating at a non towered airport and not communicating with ATC, must you comply with traffic patterns established for that airport? If published for only left turns, can you legally depart or arrive using right turns? No! See CFR 91.126. Sometimes I will remind people coming into the pattern at my home airport that we have left hand traffic. The 2 biggest offenders are student pilots coming from a towered airport, sometimes with instructors along, and commercial pilots trying to save time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 Tom is correct. In short, there are a lot of pilots violating this FAR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace. (a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class G airspace area must comply with the requirements of this section. ( Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace— (1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and The reg (other class airspace refers back to it) does not say that one has to fly a traffic pattern. If I am flying straight in and not making any turns I am not in violation of this FAR. If I am flying a long base and turn left on final I am not in violation. If I fly a long, long downwind and don't enter the pattern at a 45° degree angle at midfield I am not in violation of this FAR. If I am above traffic pattern altitude and above minimum safe altitudes for my class and category of airplane, I can fly it anyway I want, such as overfly in any direction. I agree 100% with Tom that commercial pilots are trying to save time (and money). Flying a tight right base may be a problem, but flying a "right base" that results in a final that is a straight-in from outside the traffic pattern is not denied by the FAR. A lot of the discussion has to do with what one considers the size and characteristics of a traffic pattern. If you fly a long downwind so that you fly a two mile final and your buddy likes a tight pattern so that he has a 1 mile final, he could claim that you are not in a pattern at all but are on a straight-in. You'd disagree. What is "in the vicinity of the airport"? Anyone know any legal decision on this? When the Cedar Rapids airport is closed every night from 2330 to 0530 it reverts to Class E. It is a big FedEx hub. Do any of you really believe that the FedEx 737s are going to fly a pattern as opposed to a straight in? They will probably fly a GPS type approach even on a clear, moonlit night when they could be totally VFR. They could cancel IFR in the air and you could say they should fly around the field. They ain't gonna do it. And nobody is going to violate them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted February 24, 2013 Report Share Posted February 24, 2013 When did FedEx start flying 737"s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted February 25, 2013 Report Share Posted February 25, 2013 The reg (other class airspace refers back to it) does not say that one has to fly a traffic pattern. If I am flying straight in and not making any turns I am not in violation of this FAR. You're right. One could even say, "You win." Still, we have on the one side the FAA outlining and recommending certain procedures. They do so in a wide variety of places. So do virtually all of the training manuals I've seem. Most flight instructors are certainly on board with this and teach it - they better if they want their students to pass. On the other side, I read the mentality as, "I know what the FAA recommends, but I don't care. I'll do what I think is safe, as long as its legal. I found a loophole - yes, by law all turns in a standard pattern should be made to the left yada yada yada, but I want to expedite my arrival and so if technically I don't make any turns I'm legal, so I'll just do it my way." Fine. I just pick up on something I leaned when training to be a CFI. Take it for what it's worth - or not: "Anti-Authority: "Don't tell me!" - When people have this attitude they may resent having someone tell them what to do or they think of rules and regs as silly or unneeded." One of the Five Hazardous Attitudes. Just sayin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted February 25, 2013 Report Share Posted February 25, 2013 Ed, I don't consider that I "won". Hopefully, we all won. This whole thing started out as a casual comment that some people use rounded approaches and went on to discuss the fact that some people fly other than the FAA standard pattern. It included protestations that these practices were illegal (or immoral). It response, it was suggested that there are some times when they are the right thing to do and sometimes when they are defensible or at least understandable, but in any event we should all be prepared for them. We've had a good run through the regs and hopefully all of us expanded our knowledge and scope of understanding. I think a lot of the span of perspectives is based on our training, our experience, the environment in which we fly, our personality, our aircraft and more. As the old Indian said, "What you see depends on where you stand." There is no doubt all of us see the topic from a broader perspective and surely that is a 'win" for all of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted February 25, 2013 Report Share Posted February 25, 2013 Thumbs up to all that! Another lesson is to look out for those flying non-standard patterns... ...but of course we should be doing that anyways! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted March 15, 2013 Report Share Posted March 15, 2013 An interesting article from Aviation Safety Magazine as quoted in AvWeb provides interesting observations on the benefits and dangers of various types of traffic pattersn in an article devoted to mid-air collisions. A couple of pages. http://www.avweb.com/news/airman/midair_collision_math_208325-1.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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