30 and 40 degree landings

[FastEddieB]

Landing only one way all the time...

 

Anyone here do that?

 

Anyone here advocate that?

 

Just wondering, because it keeps coming up.

[Roger Lee]

Hi Eddie,

 

All the LSA at my field use zero in high cross winds and many that have flown into my field because we have discussed it. Many also keep some power in and add approximately 5 knots extra. (There's that cool word again) It isn't an isolated use or idea. This has been discussed for decades about the higher the cross wind the less the flaps right to zero flaps. It has been a debate through many articles, experts and individuals for longer than you and I have been flying. I'm a little surprised this seems so foreign to some. I had one couple that came into the field that was afraid of anything over 15 knots cross wind. I suggested he try zero flaps with power to the ground. Said it was the best landing he ever made and uses this to this day. It gives lots of control, less chance for wind to lift up on an extended flap and with some power to touch much better control over the flight surfaces with the prop wash and an immediate full throttle spin up and a go around if things got too dicey with the high crosswind.

You may want to give it a try and see for a comparison.

 

I landed in 25's the other day. I was heavy at zero flaps and 2800 rpm right to touch. Perfect landing and never a squirrely moment or a mushy feel to the controls. Almost as solid as a calm wind landing.

 

 

Just another tool in a toolbox. The big thing is don't limit the tools in your toolbox because you haven't ever used that tool before.

[FastEddieB]

I often use less than full flaps in a strong crosswind. If its a GUSTY strong crosswind I'll use 0º flaps and fly it on.

 

So we're in agreement here.

 

I think I've mentioned before that the Cirrus manual says this:

 

• Caution •

 

Landings should be made with full flaps. Landings with less than full flaps are recommended only if the flaps fail to deploy or to extend the aircraft’s glide distance due to engine malfunction. Landings with flaps at 50% or 0%; power should be used to achieve a normal glidepath and low descent rate. Flare should be minimized.

 

And they define "Caution" as:

 

• Caution •

 

Cautions are used to call attention to operating procedures which, if not strictly observed, may result in damage to equipment.

 

 

 

Of course, in spite of that some Cirrus pilots land with less than full flaps. If they ever came to grief on one of those landings they might have some 'splainin' to do. They're not specifically violating an FAR, since its not a Limitation, but one could still find disregarding a Caution as ground for Careless or Reckless Operation. Certainly as an instructor I want to teach to the POH. We do teach partial and no flap landings, but only as practice in the event of a flap failure.

[Tom Baker]

Eddie, I can't seem to figure out how to copy and paste from the document, but here is a link to the CTLS manual. Take a look at what they have to say about landings and flaps. http://documents.flightdesignusa.com/AF04300005_08.pdf

[Roger Lee]

Hi Eddie,

 

I often use less than full flaps in a strong crosswind. If its a GUSTY strong crosswind I'll use 0º flaps and fly it on.

 

So we're in agreement here.

 

Yes we are, but it took me 12 pages to get there. :lol:

 

 

You have to forget Cirrus, Cessna, Piper and the like. We don't fly those and they are different ion many aspects. That's why so many high time pilots from the GA side have a tougher time in transition because they want to fly an LSA like the others.

[Roger Lee]

Hi Tom,

 

Some website documents are blocked from copying or printing. Go download "Foxit pdf printer" and then when you go to the blocked document you select that print option and then you can even select a single page or the whole thing and it will copy what you selected to your computer. I use it all the time to get around blocks on documents. Then you can just post it here like a picture.

[Tom Baker]

Hi Tom,

 

Some website documents are blocked from copying or printing. Go download "Foxit pdf printer" and then when you go to the blocked document you select that print option and then you can even select a single page or the whole thing and it will copy what you selected to your computer. I use it all the time to get around blocks on documents. Then you can just post it here like a picture.

 

Roger, I have it saved on my computer. I can print it no problem, just can't copy and paste

[sandpiper]

Another reason to use no more than 15 flaps with cross winds or gusty conditions is the max flap speed on the CT for flaps 30 or more is 62K. Under steady non turbulent conditions this might not be a problem but otherwise your airspeed may be all over the place. Holding 62K or less may not only be impossible but you really don't want to be that slow until you are close to touchdown.

[FastEddieB]

 

 

You have to forget Cirrus, Cessna, Piper and the like. We don't fly those and they are different in many aspects. That's why so many high time pilots from the GA side have a tougher time in transition because they want to fly an LSA like the others.

 

I did not bring up the Cirrus caution on flaps to make an argument - only to point out that there are planes where the manufacturer may recommend, or even mandate, full flaps on landing, even in crosswinds and even in gusty conditions.

 

Move up to transport category and flaps are absolutely part of every landing.

 

I have found that early on in my career, every plane felt quite different. Over the years, I've come to find they all fly basically the same way - the laws of physics and aerodynamics don't suddenly change as you move from one class or model of plane to another.

 

I've often heard it said, you can't land a Cirrus like you would a Cessna, yet I did, through many successful landings. My same basic technique worked well on Apaches and Aztecs as well.

 

I ferried cropdusters in the past. My checkout consisted of reading the manual and jumping in - with just one seat there's not much else one can do. And guess what? They flew pretty much like bigger, heavier and more powerful Citabrias - again, they just flew pretty much like every other plane I had flown.

 

I have found nothing essentially different about Light Sport Planes. They may be lighter and slower, and you have to adjust your wind limits downward, but I think too much is made of the differences.

 

But That's Just Me!

[Roger Lee]

Agreed mostly. I believe there isn't a change in physics, but in a few of the flight characteristics. Things like a 10K-20K lb. plane has a lot more kinetic energy and in a 740 lb plane with 40 flaps out very little so it's time to pay attention and make the necessary mental adjutments.

[coppercity]

Straight from the CT manual

 

▲Warning:

 

Too high approach speeds with flap changes on a light and efficient aircraft like the CTLS-LSA shortly before touch-down lead very quickly to dynamic flight conditions. If in doubt: discontinue the approach and perform a go around.

 

▲Warning:

 

Do not rely on the demonstrated wind speed data in the manual for crosswind landings. Local conditions causing dangerous leeward turbulence can lead to lower limits.

 

▲Warning

The aircraft can be landed at all flap settings. The maximum flap position (30°) should be used to land on very short runways under favorable wind condition (no crosswind component, very light wind and low gusts).

 

 Approach airspeed 55 kt (102 km/h)

Flaps in final

... 15° at long airfields, gusty conditions or cross wind

.... 30° only on final for short runways and when conditions permit

 Airspeed on final 52 kt (96 km/h) with Flaps 30°

 Flare smoothly, nose not too high; Avoid ballooning

 After touchdown stick smoothly back to relieve nose wheel

 

During a landing with crosswind, the upwind wing should be dipped by applying aileron against the wind and direction kept using the rudder. As the CTLS-LSA is a high-wing aircraft, there is no risk of the wing tips touching the ground.

 

After landing, all unnecessary electrical equipment, especially the landing light, should be switched off. As this equipment requires a lot of power and since the alternator does not produce much power during taxiing due to relatively low engine rpm, the battery would discharge considerably before the engine is finally shut down.

 

[Ed Cesnalis]

My CTSW POH lacks those Warnings. The speeds are similar between the SW and LS, what about the capabilities? Is the SW more suited to normal landings at 30 than the LS?

[Tom Baker]

My CTSW POH lacks those Warnings. The speeds are similar between the SW and LS, what about the capabilities? Is the SW more suited to normal landings at 30 than the LS?

 

Having flown both in my mind I would say no. The SW is a very good airplane, but they tried to fix some of its problems when designing the LS. They worked on the problems by putting the airplanes in a full scale wind tunnel. A few of the things they found were the flaps past 35° were counter productive. That is why they changed it for the LS, and now 30° for the CTLSi. Another thing the found was that the corners of the fuselage where it meets the wing needed to be squared off and the little fence installed. This was to help remove the smooth air stick bump that the SW has. Also there was the change to the wing tip to increase aileron authority at slow speeds.

[Jim Meade]

flaps past 35° were counter productive

 

Tom, do you seriously mean counterproductive, as in don't do that? Or do you mean no more productive, as in it's OK but doesn't do you any more good.

 

I'd like to think that if they were counterproductive - that is bad - FD would have come out and said something to us.

[Tom Baker]

Tom, do you seriously mean counterproductive, as in don't do that? Or do you mean no more productive, as in it's OK but doesn't do you any more good.

 

I'd like to think that if they were counterproductive - that is bad - FD would have come out and said something to us.

 

I am trying to remember, but the conversation was 5 years ago when the CTLS was introduced. If I remember correctly anything past 35° had a big increase in drag with no decrase in stall speed. Some on here have said the SW will fly slower with 30° flaps instead of 40°.

[CT4ME]

I always felt that max flaps on the CTsw was for special/advanced use only. My instructor, who made me learn them, always remarked how nose-down you ended up flying. Just look at the size of those flaps, and the percentage of wing they take up. I don't remember seeing any aircraft with such large flaps.

Tim