Runtoeat Posted April 13, 2014 Report Share Posted April 13, 2014 Hi Jacques. Let me see if it's still at the facility where I did my stabilator. If it's still there, I'll make you a rental offer you can't refuse! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cammie Patch Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 This is on the vertical fin on a 2006 CTSW in the Idaho desert. This aircraft has always been stored in the heated hanger. I have it in the shop to repair the fin after it suffered damage from striking the ground during taxi. The waviness has nothing to do with the incident. Cammie Patch A&P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 Hi Cammie, How are things. This still looks like possible water damage. Could be from too much water from washing or a chemical that was in the water. A tail strike here would cause delamination of spider cracking horizontally. Could it have been in the rain on a trip at one time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cammie Patch Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 It isn't water damage. That makes no sense. I doubt the aircraft has ever been flown in the rain or sat out in the rain, it only rains about 12" a year here, and the humidity is extremely dry. Besides, a water-soluble aircraft would be a joke. I have thousands of hours in Cirrus and Columbia aircraft and have never seen damage like this. There was virtually no entry point for water, and the drain was clear. A chemical in the water would cause universal damage to the aircraft, not just in an isolated location. I have a really bad feeling about this for the entire fleet. The pics that Floats posted are amazing. If I were the manufacturer I would immediately go into damage control mode and figure out what the problem is, and make sure it is taken care of right away. Underlying damage like this is dangerous. Not necessarily on the tail fin, but certainly on the structural components like were posted previously. Cammie Patch A&P Rotax Heavy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 Cammie, I think that fin is fiberglass and the rest of the place is carbon fiber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 Possibly just a simple delamination between layers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 The tail fin is carbon fiber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 It isn't water damage. That makes no sense. I doubt the aircraft has ever been flown in the rain or sat out in the rain, it only rains about 12" a year here, and the humidity is extremely dry. Besides, a water-soluble aircraft would be a joke. I have thousands of hours in Cirrus and Columbia aircraft and have never seen damage like this. There was virtually no entry point for water, and the drain was clear. A chemical in the water would cause universal damage to the aircraft, not just in an isolated location. I have a really bad feeling about this for the entire fleet. The pics that Floats posted are amazing. If I were the manufacturer I would immediately go into damage control mode and figure out what the problem is, and make sure it is taken care of right away. Underlying damage like this is dangerous. Not necessarily on the tail fin, but certainly on the structural components like were posted previously. Cammie Patch A&P Rotax Heavy The wrinkling comes from the foam that is sandwiched between the layers of glass. The foam is very chemical resistant, but does tend to collapse when it comes in contact with a alkaline substance. While the surfaces are mostly protected by the finished surface the sub fin is unfinished on the inside. Water can get into the sub fin from the big opening right under the stabilator when washing or in the rain. Even with the drain holes open the water will stay in there for a little while. If it finds its way through a pinhole in the fiberglass it will get to the foam causing it to shrink or collapse. When this happens you get what looks like what you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 Ahhhh . . . . . . . the beauty of aluminum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 The tail fin is carbon fiber. All that I have seen are opaque like fiberglass, and not black like carbon fiber. That is if you are talking about the sub fin, that is what he showed in the picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 All that I have seen are opaque like fiberglass, and not black like carbon fiber. That is if you are talking about the sub fin, that is what he showed in the picture. I missed the part where he had said CTsw. I have not looked at the tail strake on an sw yet. I know that in the three we have, one of them has some fiberglass in it, but the majority is still carbon fiber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 I missed the part where he had said CTsw. I have not looked at the tail strake on an sw yet. I know that in the three we have, one of them has some fiberglass in it, but the majority is still carbon fiber. I'm getting ready to add the bumper block on mine, so I will be able to get a good look. The parts I have seen look to be glass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 I'm getting ready to add the bumper block on mine, so I will be able to get a good look. The parts I have seen look to be glass. Is there an established LOA for that mod? From what I understand, adding that "skid" requires some internal reinforcement, not just slapping it on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 You can put the plastic skid on, but it is only good for just that, a mild scrape of the tail. Pull back hard enough and or don't arrest the vertical decent and it will still crumple, buckle and damage the under fin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cammie Patch Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 It fiberglass. I don't actually see any sign of a foam core on the fin either. When the paint dries I'll do a tap test. Seriously though, regardless of the reason, based on the pics Floats posted, this is a big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted July 19, 2014 Report Share Posted July 19, 2014 I had the skid installed recently. It required an MRA ("Major Repair and Alteration" filled out specific to my CTSW and signed by Tom Peghiny). FWIW, the underfin material shown in the shop photo attached to my MRA paperwork was very black in color - looked like carbon fiber to me. I am not sure what my 2006 CTSW fin is made from since I wasn't present when the skid was installed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted July 19, 2014 Report Share Posted July 19, 2014 In a recent telephone conversation with Dave Armando (Flight Design USA), before the plastic skid came out, an accepted substitute was a couple of strips of Gap Seal Tape (same type of tape that seals wings to fuselage). I ordered the tape, cut it to my preference and have two strips on the bottom of the fin. The tape is 2' wide and very adhesive. It is $10 for a roll. Item code is "S-2230." Gap seal tape 2", white. The tape is not for protection. It is strictly a sacrificial indicator. For my purposes, the tape is good for two things. First, it shows if the tail was inadvertently struck during ground handling. Secondly, it indicates if the tail contacted the ground due to over rotation on takeoff or landing. For my specific airplane (CTSW), with no persons aboard, fuel tanks full, on level ground, the tail will contact the ground at approximately 11 degrees nose up. AT max gross takeoff weight, that pitch attitude may be a little less. That withstanding, it is a good indicator of excessive pitch attitude, especially during round out on landing. The tape is easy to replace and will not lie to you. Since installation, inspecting the condition of the tape is now a normal part of my post flight inspection procedure. . . . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted July 19, 2014 Report Share Posted July 19, 2014 I'll take a photo of our broken tail strake the next time I am in the shop. Maybe the older fins don't have it, or maybe they used foam for a short time, but it's quite clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted July 19, 2014 Report Share Posted July 19, 2014 In a recent telephone conversation with Dave Armando (Flight Design USA), before the plastic skid came out, an accepted substitute was a couple of strips of Gap Seal Tape (same type of tape that seals wings to fuselage). I ordered the tape, cut it to my preference and have two strips on the bottom of the fin. The tape is 2' wide and very adhesive. It is $10 for a roll. Item code is "S-2230." Gap seal tape 2", white. The tape is not for protection. It is strictly a sacrificial indicator. For my purposes, the tape is good for two things. First, it shows if the tail was inadvertently struck during ground handling. Secondly, it indicates if the tail contacted the ground due to over rotation on takeoff or landing. For my specific airplane (CTSW), with no persons aboard, fuel tanks full, on level ground, the tail will contact the ground at approximately 11 degrees nose up. AT max gross takeoff weight, that pitch attitude may be a little less. That withstanding, it is a good indicator for me of when I have an excessive pitch attitude, especially during round out on landing. The tape is easy to replace and will not lie to you. Since installing the tape, inspecting the condition of the tape is now a normal part of my post flight inspection. . . . . . Bill, make sure the tape does not cover the drain hole at the lowest point at the bottom of the fin. If water collects in there and has no route to escape, you could end up with exactly the kind of damage this thread is all about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted July 19, 2014 Report Share Posted July 19, 2014 Bill, make sure the tape does not cover the drain hole at the lowest point at the bottom of the fin. If water collects in there and has no route to escape, you could end up with exactly the kind of damage this thread is all about. Excellent point Andy. I should have mentioned that. I left plenty of clearance from the drain hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
floats Posted July 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 This is a second hand replacement provided to me to replace the jelly like one. Hard to say if there is any carbon fibre . Nothing black is visible and I can see through in several location from the inside Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 All fiberglass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 All fiberglass. And foam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted July 20, 2014 Report Share Posted July 20, 2014 And foam. Are you trying to stir the kettle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Are you trying to stir the kettle? Not really, just adding info for those who don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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