First 40 Landing

[FlyingMonkey]

My second training flight on a CTSW was on Saturday. Just when I was getting comfortable with the standard 15 degrees flap landing, the instructor switched to 40 degrees flaps landing. Gosh, what a handful. Very easy to get going either too fast or two slow, and the tendency of the nose to yaw either direction seemly at random was even more pronounced.

 

This plane is fun, but not unchallenging.

[Ed Cesnalis]

...Just when I was getting comfortable with the [non-]standard 15 degrees flap landing...

 

 

 

40 will keep you on your toes, avoid stalling a wing tip, stay in a good energy state. If you can trim for your approach speed the speed control is handled for you. The yaw tendency is probably you and not the plane, at 40 keep some power in and close the throttle on contact.

 

30 is very similar but far more forgiving and the normal landing configuration in my book.

 

If its gusting to 25-35kts+ I go to 15. zero and reflex seem silly to me.

[FlyingMonkey]

Thanks CT. The instructor has me go to full nose up trim when the flaps go down, not sure if that is the easiest way to trim it or not. Definitely had me keep some power in, but even just a little too much power gets you too fast or off glide slope...it's a delicate thing.

 

As for the yaw, it could definitely be me, I never attribute to an airplane what can be attributed to the pilot. . But feet not moving in a stabilized approach the nose seems to come off direction either way easily and without input...

 

 

[mocfly]

Andy,

Remember the SW your flying has flaps and flaperons.

[FlyingMonkey]

Andy,

Remember the SW your flying has flaps and flaperons.

 

I understand this, but I'm not sure what you mean by this...

[Roger Lee]

Hi Andy,

 

Don'tr worry about too fast because you can always bleed the speed at the round out and just hold it off a tad longer. 40 flaps act like air brakes. Speed bleeds quick. Keeping a little throttle to touch is good. Too slow is where people get into major trouble with 40 flaps. Many of the CT smashed gear legs have come from 30-40 flaps and being to slow and too high. So for now a little extra speed is okay and as you gain experience, fine touch control and sight picture you can change things with a little confidence. Even FD got rid of 40 flaps and went to 35 so for most landings with high flap settings I personally don't see a need for 40 over 30. I do practice them, but the difference is so small that it isn't a huge significant tool or gain.

 

The yaw will be far more pronounced in the CT if you have to much trim in and you are a little too slow. Keeping throttle in until touch will help combat this. I prefer 2800 rpm to touch, but you can find your own number.

Using a higher flap setting isn't always about the shortest landing, it may be a better selection for an approach.

[Ed Cesnalis]

If you are doing 40 degree landings you are already ahead of the average CTSW pilot

 

Something sounds wrong, if the instructor says full nose up trim that can only be right for one flap setting and even that would vary with gusts.

 

It is typical to adjust your pitch attitude with your stick and then trim away the pressure. If you could do this for your target approach speed then the speed control issue should go away. Full nose up is only right if it results in your target speed and even if it does its kind of a backwards way to fly.

 

40 degrees should feel 'on the edge', if the yaw feels uncomannded then try to anticipate it and prevent it rather than react to it.

[CT4ME]

While you will be required to master the 30-40 flaps, I'd suggest that a bulk of your initial flying be done at 15. My reasoning:

• By surveys done on this site and discussions with CT pilots, a bulk of their landings are done at 15.
  
• Flaps 15 give you a much better chance of having a good landing. At early stages of training, having successes is encouraging.
  
• Flaps 30 and 40 require much more skill
  
• The likelihood of damaging a training aircraft (or yourself!) is greater while playing with 40 flap landings if you do not possess the aforementioned skills.
  

Yes, a 40 flap landing is a thing of beauty, and has a place in your bag-o-tricks, but I don't think it's something that should be forced on someone on their second lesson.

Tim

[Roger Lee]

I agree with Tim,

 

learn to walk well before trying to run. I would always tell an instructor to teach things in steps as good habits and experience develops, but throwing people into the deep end too soon can be detrimental to learning.

[207WF]

And remember: trim to a specific airspeed. No mechanical full nose up trim, ever. If you develop that bad habit and later take it to, say a Cessna 206, it will kill you if you have to do a go around. WF

[mocfly]

Andy,

My reply about flaps and flaperons was to make sure you understood how they work in the CTSW.

 

[paul m]

_{Seems kinda early in flight training (2nd lesson?) to be doing 40 degree flap landings, no? In any event, if I'm not mistaken, the CTLSi is limited to 30 degrees (35 in Europe).}

[FastEddieB]

_{Seems kinda early in flight training (2nd lesson?) to be doing 40 degree flap landings, no?}

 

_{This comes up periodically.}

 

_{I learned to fly in a C-150 with 40° "barn door" flaps. Later, Cessna decided 30° was quite enough.}

 

_{When I learned to land, it was 10° abeam the numbers, 20° on base, 30° turning final and full flaps with the runway "made". Conditions permitting, of course.}

 

_{Now, nearly 40 years later, full flaps is still what I consider "normal". Certainly I can land with less than full flaps, but I need a good reason to do so.}

 

_{Many pilots first learn landings with no or partial flaps. For many of them, the Law Of Primacy may reinforce for the rest of their careers that that is the norm, and they may come to avoid full flap landings, convinced that they're "harder" and "unnecessary".}

 

_{But it's an old debate, and instructors on both sides have valid reasons for teaching the way they do. And there may be something particularly onerous in the way a CT lands with full flaps.}

 

_{I would still advise getting comfortable with one's plane in every configuration. If something seems hard, just practice it until its not - don't just avoid it.}

[Ed Cesnalis]

I'm with Eddie with a couple of clarifications. 40 degrees in a CTSW is approaching 'onerous' but at 30 she is quite well behaved. 30 is still quite different then full flaps in a Cessna, the pitch change is huge, and the resulting attitude is nose low and very flat at touchdown. The law of primacy comes into play with flaps more than any other issue and after 30+ years of using full flaps at Mammoth I bet somewhere along the line I have saved myself some grief because of the slower speeds.

 

Wayne is right, full nose up is just a bad habit, even if you do approach full nose up, trim for a speed.

 

Roger and Tim are right, you should have little trouble learning 15, but should it even come first? On that I agree with Eddie. Roger says that full flaps result in bent gear and I say that is a vertical speed issue, I could bend my gear with or without flaps if I wanted to. There is a huge lesson here, that you will learn better with full flaps and that is to use your right hand to advance the throttle to soften the touchdown. It is easier to freeze and let it sink too rapidly, it will not only save your gear, it provides another option when you run out of stick.

[Tom Baker]

On your yaw issue it is stick induced and not feet induced. When slow the CT has a bunch of adverse yaw, and even slight left to right movement of the stick without the propper rudder input will cause the yaw issues. A quiet stick with small movements will make the approach easier.

[WmInce]

On your yaw issue it is stick induced and not feet induced. When slow the CT has a bunch of adverse yaw, and even slight left to right movement of the stick without the propper rudder input will cause the yaw issues. A quiet stick with small movements will make the approach easier.

 

IOW, lateral "overcontrolling?"

[FlyingMonkey]

Thanks for the responses guys! As far as my "second lesson" goes, please note I already have my Sport Pilot license. This was my second lesson in the CTSW, not total! I didn't feel totally overwhelmed by the 40 degree landings, just a "little" overwhelmed. My instructor definitely moves pretty fast, he's a former F-104 pilot...but I have no trouble telling him if he's getting me in too far.

 

On your yaw issue it is stick induced and not feet induced. When slow the CT has a bunch of adverse yaw, and even slight left to right movement of the stick without the propper rudder input will cause the yaw issues. A quiet stick with small movements will make the approach easier.

 

This is definitely true, and I know throttle changes with flaps causes some of the yaw. I'm just assuming that it's pilot induced and I'll grow out of it if I work at it.

 

I don't really like the "full up trim" idea either. But he is the instructor and I'll do it his way for now, down the road I will figure out a trim model that works better for me. Maybe I'll try to "sneak" the trim to where I want it instead of going full trim and see if I get caught/corrected...

[Ed Cesnalis]

IOW, lateral "overcontrolling?"

 

Sort of but not exactly.

 

You could have larger, precise and coordinated inputs or if your coordinating skills are lacking then smaller more numerous inputs will result in less adverse yaw.

[mocfly]

Andy,

With full flaps it takes about 20 degrees nose down pitch to maintain 1.3 vso. So any more speed requires even more pitch. Can be quite disconcerting initially for pilots used to other aircraft. Best case is to set the pitch on the AI initially to get the correct sight picture. I am sure your instructor will point this out.

 

 

[Ed Cesnalis]

I adjusted my trim this year to get more nose down. Now I can approach at 30 degrees and trim for 55kts or more but I now run out of nose up trim with 15 degrees and have to hold back pressure on a 15 degree approach.

 

I don't remember this compromise when the plane was new perhaps I didn't trim for approach speeds back then. It does indicate the meaningful difference in 15 vs 30 configurations. At one I'm trimmed near full nose down and the other full nose up isn't enough.

 

I like my take off trim to be full nose down because I lift off as soon as she is ready with an already elevated nose wheel. This results in my climbing at speeds less than 45kts. With the full nose down trim I begin releasing back pressure as my mains come up and allow it to accelerate in ground effect to the full nose down trim speed which is close to Vx. It feels much safer when wind sheer is present.

[Ed Cesnalis]

With full flaps it takes about 20 degrees nose down pitch to maintain 1.3 vso. So any more speed requires even more pitch. Can be quite disconcerting initially for pilots used to other aircraft...

 

Chris,

 

If you fly like me, ( pitch first to maintain speed ) that 20 degree nose down gives you a 10 degree buffer to keep your final approach from being aerobatic. The runway near my hangar is a favorite hang out for the turkey vultures because of the 1,000' / min thermals that bust loose there all day long.

 

I have been border line aerobatic twice this week, once on a base to final turn into a thermal and another on short final. ( I am about to buy a Gopro Hero 3 ) The guy that checked me out told me that I fly like a Navy pilot and that I should maintain my pitch and add power but I just hate doing that.

 

So If I need to exceed 30degrees on final am I violating an FAR or is it ok to exceed the limit to maintain speed? Rotors bring up the same question, you can 'go over the falls' in a lightly loaded CT and need 30+degrees nose down to avoid stalling, is that a violation? If you encounter sheer and rotors often enough and if your aircraft is light enough complying with the 30 degree limitation seems to be an invitation to stall or overspeed.

[mocfly]

CT,

Based on all of your posts that I have read I believe we probably fly alike.

Having said that, I am always up for learning how to be a better aviator, and look to those that I consider better than myself for advice. But even the best make poor decisions. Remember Scott Crossfield flying into a thunderstorm? For what its worth, I never tell people how they should fly however I will tell them how i fly based on certain conditions. Kinda like stall, no stall, bla bla bla....you know what. Are you safe? Is your equipment taken care of? Are your passengers safe? Then fly whatever way you want.. My opinion...

 

I will say this..had I not been able to roll the CT onto the runway at 90knots you would be reading about me and trying to figure out how I stalled the aircraft and crashed..

 

 

Regarding regulation:

I fly the aircraft in whatever configuration I need in order to keep myself, my passengers and people on the ground safe. I really hate to say this, but if actions dictate that I must exceed some regulation in order to maintain safety of flight I will do it without hesitation.

 

The adage aviate, navigate, communicate is my aviation mantra.

[FastEddieB]

As a reminder...

 

FAR 91.3( specifically authorizes that “n an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.”

 

So, violating any rule may be "legal".

 

Just be sure you can articulate how and why you found yourself in the emergency in the first place.

 

Given that, well, a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do!

[mocfly]

Yeah

What Ed said!

[Jim Meade]

As regards rolling in full pitch trim, suggest to your CFI that you go out to mayb 1500 AGL and practice an elevator trim stall. This is required of CFI's but not private pilots. I do not recommend anyone perform this alone the first time and certainly not near the ground. It's fully controllable, but can be a bit of a surprise the first time it happens.

 

From AFH 4-13,14.

 

"At a safe altitude and after ensuring that the area is

clear of other air traffic, the pilot should slowly retard

the throttle and extend the landing gear (if retractable

gear). One-half to full flaps should be lowered, the

throttle closed, and altitude maintained until the

airspeed approaches the normal glide speed. When the

normal glide is established, the airplane should be

trimmed for the glide just as would be done during a

landing approach (nose-up trim).

During this simulated final approach glide, the throttle

is then advanced smoothly to maximum allowable

power as would be done in a go-around procedure. The

combined forces of thrust, torque, and back-elevator

trim will tend to make the nose rise sharply and turn to

the left.

When the throttle is fully advanced and the pitch

attitude increases above the normal climbing attitude

and it is apparent that a stall is approaching, adequate

forward pressure must be applied to return the airplane

to the normal climbing attitude. While holding the

airplane in this attitude, the trim should then be

adjusted to relieve the heavy control pressures and the

normal go-around and level-off procedures completed."

 

My landings are either 30 or 40, never less unless there are gusty crosswinds, in which case may I use 15. I really should go out and do some -6 landings in case I ever can't move the flaps.