First 40 Landing

[Darrenr]

What airspeeds are you guys comfortable with in 15 and 30 degree flap on final? And over the numbers? Curious to see what everyone is looking for I was taught 54 final 30 - 35 degree and 60 15 degree in a ctsw 65 no flap which seems fast for shorter runways

[sandpiper]

Under normal conditions I look of 50K on final with flaps 30 or 40 but no more than 55K.

 

With flaps 15 I shoot for 55K but no more than 60K.

 

Over the "numbers", who knows. I hold the above until beginning of flare then after that I no longer look at airspeed.

 

I also shoot for no less then 60K until wings level on final then get stabilized ASAP.

 

You don't know what you started here

[sandpiper]

The above numbers still give a fair amount of float. Notice that the CTSW manual, at least the one I got in 2007, says to use 45K on short final with flaps 40 in the event of engine failure. I have never messed with 45K and I don't advocate that slow because you will have no room for error and you stand a good chance of bending the gear. Maybe FD figures that an off field landing with engine failure will result in a bent aircraft anyway.

[Roger Lee]

I use 60 knots (55 knots works too) for approach with zero and 15 and 50 knots for 30 and 40 flaps. You can then use power to touch or have the throttle closed your choice. It works either way. These are my personal minimums and this keeps me from ever being to slow or having to worry that something may change it it falls out from under me with no altitude. Many find it smoother and easier with a little power. Try it both ways and then you'll have both tools in your mental toolbox. I never only learn one way because nothing is ever just one way ALWAYS. Your touch down speed will be up to you. Some where between 42-50 knots works depending on flaps and experience. The lower the flaps setting the higher the touch speed. Don't let anyone tell you you always have to use a certain flap setting and throttle setting, learn them all and practice them all. -6 to 40 flaps with and without power. They all have there place in certain circumstances.

[sandpiper]

Roger makes a good point about "ALWAYS". A plane is not a set and forget machine.

[Roger Lee]

And conditions are never always alike especially during emergencies or when close to the outer limit of your envelope (plane or pilot).

 

Train for the worst, be happy with the mundane.

[Darrenr]

Thx guys I have used 55 for 15 and 30 never tried 50 wanted to hear that was solid before I personally tested it. I will try it on 30. I find 60 a little quick for me. I agree over the numbers I never look just feel from there honestly i never see the touchdown speed either just feel it down. I like using a little power to control touch down. I like the stall horn on landing but I am not a full stall guy but what do I know I am learning every flight! Learned on 65 with zero flaps but also little quick for me I will try 60. Note I always seem to be on shorter runways 2100 -2800'. Which even at the quicker speeds is plenty for the SW but I like to have it all wrapped up early on the runway just in case. The control and attitudes is incredible compared to the 172 sp I have been flying, love the SW. Thanks for all the input great to hear so many opinions when learning a new plane.

[Roger Lee]

Your throttle doesn't control speed the stick does. 60 at zero or 15 will work fine on 2800' runway. We do this at the Page Fly-In at the Bullfrog Resort strip and 55 will work with 15 just fine. I'm a big believer in not getting so close to stall speeds or low approach speeds that if something changes I'm in trouble or if I get distracted and my speed bleeds before I notice. I usually fly heavy too. I prefer buffers and safety over trying to get it on at the lowest knot I can. If I need to get rid of a little speed on the runway that's what they make brakes for. I can land on a 1000' runway with an approach or 60 knots and zero or 15 flaps. You can't leave any runway behind you so I have always learned to aim or land on targets not just the whole runway. I do agree depending on winds that more flaps and lower speeds on short runways is better.

[FastEddieB]

Don't let anyone tell you you always have to use a certain flap setting and throttle setting...

 

While there may be some pilot somewhere who says that, I don't think anyone here has.

 

...learn them all and practice them all. -6 to 40 flaps with and without power. They all have there place in certain circumstances.

 

Agree 100%! Versatility is the mark of a well-rounded pilot.

[Roger Lee]

Gbigs,

 

It really isn't an issue using 30-40 flaps and it isn't the plane's fault that owners have smacked the gear. That has happened in all flap settings not just 30-40 and many times it has been high time pilots and CFI's. The issue has been and usually always will be poor decisions at the point of landing by the pilot. It usually boils down to, too high and or too slow at the wrong moment and it drops out from under you and there is not time for a save. Get rid of these and any flap landing is okay and safe to do. There isn't much of a difference for the CT guys between 30 and 40 flaps on landings. You loose altitude faster, more nose down, a lot less speed and energy at the bottom so being on target for the round out and the proper speed is important. You just have to remember there is a lot of flap and drag out there with these settings.

[Ed Cesnalis]

There is no reason to train to use 30 or 40 degree flaps

• To pass your checkride
  
• To land slowly
  
• To land with a flat tire
  
• To do an emergency landing
  

You can short field land a CT all day and night with 15 degree with a little extra flair.

• Extra Flair? Is that like Rick Flair? Please explain, are you raising your nose higher to compensate for less flaps and more speed? Does that really work?
  

The big flaps are dangerous and should never be used in normal landings.

• I have about 1,000, 30 degree landings on my CTSW and I say that statement is false. How many do you have?
  

Sudden wind gusts and/or too little power is a recipe for close to ground stalls and damage to the aircraft.?

• Isn't that why we use margin over stall and even use a sliding scale for sudden wind gusts? More flaps mean more lift and slower stall speed, so why is that bad?
  
• Why is power needed for margin from stall? If that were true wouldn't an engine failure mean an imminent stall? I have flown for long periods of time with the engine turned off and I didn't stall, how is that possible? Glider pilots land every flight without power.
  

[Roger Lee]

Don't forget to add when the flaps malfunction. Which has happened numerous times.

[Darrenr]

Thx guys a lot of info all great. I have my private and switching over to ct. Have all my time in a 172 sp then found the ct and fell in love. I agree with a lot of u, stick for speed, power for v s, A O A determines stall etc. I have used the 30 -40 comes in handy when I am high landing over a tree line I have at my displaced threshold, u can drop it on the numbers. I am practing all configurations although I have not tried -6 love to hear some tips and speeds for that one? I do like the 30 -40 it is wild the attitude you have to get into to maintain speed. I have a lot to practice and will hopefully build my ct crosswind skill slow and steady. Charlie tango what speeds do you like on a normal ( not crazy crosswind) landings in the different configurations? Do u stick with 1.3 vso in each of the flap positions?

[WmInce]

I use 60 knots (55 knots works too) for approach with zero and 15 and 50 knots for 30 and 40 flaps. You can then use power to touch or have the throttle closed your choice. It works either way. These are my personal minimums and this keeps me from ever being to slow or having to worry that something may change it it falls out from under me with no altitude. Many find it smoother and easier with a little power. Try it both ways and then you'll have both tools in your mental toolbox. I never only learn one way because nothing is ever just one way ALWAYS. Your touch down speed will be up to you. Some where between 42-50 knots works depending on flaps and experience. The lower the flaps setting the higher the touch speed. Don't let anyone tell you you always have to use a certain flap setting and throttle setting, learn them all and practice them all. -6 to 40 flaps with and without power. They all have there place in certain circumstances.

 

Roger

 

That is very level-headed advice and one of the best posts regarding this reoccurring issue that keeps popping up.

Thanks.

[Ed Cesnalis]

Charlie tango what speeds do you like on a normal ( not crazy crosswind) landings in the different configurations? Do u stick with 1.3 vso in each of the flap positions?

 

I like 1.3VSo plus 1/2 the gust factor as a minimum approach speed.

[FlyingMonkey]

Your touch down speed will be up to you. Some where between 42-50 knots works depending on flaps and experience. The lower the flaps setting the higher the touch speed. Don't let anyone tell you you always have to use a certain flap setting and throttle setting, learn them all and practice them all. -6 to 40 flaps with and without power. They all have there place in certain circumstances.

 

Granted I only have three hours in the CT so far, but my instructor is teaching to level off at about three feet above the runway, wait about three seconds and then start to ease the stick back until contact. I like this because if your approach speed is correct, you just let the airplane find the correct touchdown speed. If you are too fast, you just float a little farther down the runway, but if you are patient and just wait for the sink to start it all works out. If you are a little slow the sink starts faster and you have to be a little quicker easing the stick back, but even if you are a little slow on that you just land a little flat, nothing breaks and you don't "drop" it in. This seems to work well for no power 15 flaps and 40 flaps carrying a little power. We have not done other flap/power combos yet.

[Ed Cesnalis]

I think my sink rates at ~9,000' DA are higher and less float. That being said I don't like the target of level at 3' and then wait. My experience is that there is often no wait at all, as soon as I get that nose level sink to the ground could be rapid or not. Its speed relative to weight plus conditions, the CTSW can run out of energy before you are ready.

[FlyingMonkey]

I can certainly believe this technique might not work well at 9000 msl. We are at 808 msl. That said, the same basic technique works if you just transition through level right into the aft stick without the wait. It's just all happening faster. I guess that would have to be developed and practiced through experience at the higher altitudes. At some point in the future I'd really like to take a mountain flying course -- I have no illusions that I would know how to fly well in at those altitudes.

[FastEddieB]

I think my sink rates at ~9,000' DA are higher and less float.

 

...and...

 

I can certainly believe this technique might not work well at 9000 msl. We are at 808 msl.

 

My understanding is that, given the same indicated airspeeds, absolutely nothing will be different at higher altitudes. Other than higher groundspeed and the associated different visual impression. And less power available on a go around, of course.

 

It's easy to think that thinner air provides less "cushion", but I think ground effect merely gives the illusion of a cushion.

 

But I'm ready to be educated if something else is actually going on.

[Ed Cesnalis]

Eddie,

 

I have learned that I float at sea level and sink suddenly at altitude from experience not from theory. Your points above are correct, so why is my experience different?

 

[ thinking mode ]

 

I have flown out of Mammoth Lakes, California since I began flying in the 1980s and as a result my near sea level operations happen near the ocean and my high altitude operations happen in a high desert environment.

 

Near the ocean means dense humid air and laminar flow winds where the high deserts have dry less dense air and smooth winds can be rare events. This locale was a mecca for hang-gliding, the local conditions can provide lift to stay up all day long but the air is full of sudden drops so its lousy for primary training. Local pilots used to train at the beach with the goal of flying here.

 

Conclusion, its the wind shear not the altitude that presents the sink that I encounter at altitude.

[FlyingMonkey]

Well...

 

The indicated airspeed of an approach at 0 MSL or 9000 MSL can both be 55kt, but the ground speed at 9000 will be a lot higher to generate the same air pressure. But that should give *more* float (since you are moving faster), not less as CT is seeing. Hmm...

 

CT, have you flown at closer to sea level and noted any differences in your landings?

[FastEddieB]

Andy,

 

The key is the same factors affecting lift affect the airspeed indicator in exactly the same way.

 

With thinner air, you have to go faster to get the same lift. But you also have to go equally fast for the dynamic pressure in your pitot tube to make it register your normal SL IAS approach speed.

 

So, while the float will clearly take more horizontal distance due to the faster TAS, the time it takes and the pitch attitudes and control pressures and the like should be identical at SL and at 9,000'.

 

I think both you and Ed "get" this, and Ed may be onto something about the gusts combined with the increased GS causing the illusion of less float.

[Ed Cesnalis]

in theory, you have to go faster to generate the same lift but it is offset by a proportional increase in drag so the resulting l/d has the same value.

 

turbulence will decrease the performance and a laminar flow wind will preserve the performance.

[Ed Cesnalis]

This locale was a mecca for hang-gliding, the local conditions can provide lift to stay up all day long but the air is full of sudden drops so its lousy for primary training. Local pilots used to train at the beach with the goal of flying here.

 

 

Orville and Wendell went to Kitty Hawk for this very reason.

[Doug G.]

I know that first flight has been in question lately, but Wendell?