Ed Cesnalis Posted June 17, 2013 Author Report Posted June 17, 2013 Flaps 30, throttle closed is too close to stall or worse. Most CTLS pilots use 15 flaps and enough power to make a nice smooth flair and touchdown. Here is a 10 year old landing in that config: Watching Eric and his son work together is really fun, thanks for the video. Your never ending rant "Flaps 30, throttle closed is too close to stall or worse" is getting old. Flaps 30, throttle closed does not indicated closeness to stall. Maybe you want to rephrase that in a way that makes sense?
FastEddieB Posted June 17, 2013 Report Posted June 17, 2013 Very, very nice! Looks a lot like one of mine! Airspeed at touchdown... Be still my heart!
Tom Baker Posted June 17, 2013 Report Posted June 17, 2013 Watching Eric and his son work together is really fun, thanks for the video. Your never ending rant "Flaps 30, throttle closed is too close to stall or worse" is getting old. Flaps 30, throttle closed does not indicated closeness to stall. Maybe you want to rephrase that in a way that makes sense? I agree, because flaps 30° and throttle closed has nothing to do with a stall. It is just a configuration for the airplane. With the airplane configured like this I can fly anywhere from stall speed to the 62kt limit of the airframe. If I wanted to excede the limit I could fly faster. CT, maybe you could change the title to to include MY in it somewhere, because that is not a normal landing for all who fly a CTSW.
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 17, 2013 Author Report Posted June 17, 2013 Tom, I don't have the admin privileges to change a title. Bigs, Listen to Tom, configuration such as 30 degrees, closed throttle doesn't stall an airplane. You can fly confidently in this configuration as long as you have altitude and or access to energy. The thing that does stall the plane is pulling the stick back, until you pull the stick back you are not risking a stall. Simply wait until you are close to the runway before pulling the stick back and the issue that you are hung up on goes away.
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 18, 2013 Author Report Posted June 18, 2013 Why do we video our technique? A: = To observe, analyze and demonstrate. This video was made to demonstrate to FastEddie how a CTSW lands with flaps and closed throttle. Eddie's eye keyed in on airspeed, or margin above stall, at a given point in the approach or landing. My CT has no stall warning horn or alarm, the pilot must rely on other means. ctflier.com has a stall warning and here it goes again: "Flaps 30, throttle closed is too close to stall or worse." Lets test this stall warning, maybe its calibration is off. Sample: Downwind to Base: 62kts - 1.59VSo Base 60kts - 1.54VSo Base to Final 60Kts - 1.54VSo Final - 60Kts - 1.54VSo Over the numbers - 54Kts - 1.38VSo inches above runway - 44Kts - 1.28VSo Touch Down - 39Kts - VSo Conclusion: The ctflier stall warning was not called for, it needs calibration. Margin from stall on this approach was far beyond 1.3VSo. There was no real risk of stalling. "Flaps 30, throttle closed is too close to stall or worse." I have no idea what the 'or worse' means, perhaps I was also in danger of falling out of the plane?
FastEddieB Posted June 18, 2013 Report Posted June 18, 2013 I think the two "Ed's" have practically identical landing techniques. Posted before, watch these two landings (play on high res and it should start about 4:30 in - airspeed is on the upper left, with Vso @ 39k): I think we both play a little "loosey-goosey" with airspeed up to short final, keeping it a bit on the high side, as Ed pointed out. But during the roundout we both arrive in ground effect with very little excess speed to bleed off in the flare, and land as slowly as we can. Ed - How about the same thing with full flaps? I'd like to compare the pitch attitudes on touchdown in each configuration.
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 18, 2013 Author Report Posted June 18, 2013 Ed - How about the same thing with full flaps? I'd like to compare the pitch attitudes on touchdown in each configuration. We are currently experiencing a wind/weather event that is so significant they gave it a name: Spring. My approach was fast because the air is unstable. Getting tailwinded with 40 degrees and a closed throttle is always my concern. I'll shoot that approach next time the air feels heavy.
FastEddieB Posted June 18, 2013 Report Posted June 18, 2013 No rush - discretion is the better part of valor!
FlyingMonkey Posted June 18, 2013 Report Posted June 18, 2013 Looks nice CT. The turn to base looked a little steep to me, but I could not tell for sure. Otherwise beautiful landing.
Ed Cesnalis Posted July 20, 2013 Author Report Posted July 20, 2013 Ed - How about the same thing with full flaps? I'd like to compare the pitch attitudes on touchdown in each configuration. I was going to do a 40° landing video today but I couldn't find my camera so I took an enthusiastic employee for a ride. He went for a ride once before and seemed utterly clueless so I didn't expect much. He was quite pleased when I offered him the controls and to my surprise he was a natural at doing coordinated turns. As the flight progressed I suggested different maneuvers for him to try and he quickly reported that if he led with the rudder it was easy to keep the ball centered. What a delight this was to witness.
Runtoeat Posted July 21, 2013 Report Posted July 21, 2013 Nice landing CT and also an instructive video. As you know, I'm also in the max flaps camp and use 40 flaps for most landings but practice landing with all other flap settings, including -6. Here's a repeat of a video I've posted here before. My friend Phil is flying right seat in his CTLS and I'm taking this video. AS with your landing, this video also demonstrates the capability our CT's have when full flaps are utilized. Full flap landings are not to be taken for granted and require practice under all wind conditions. Phil has thousands of hours in all manner of rotary and fixed wing aircraft and has convinced me of the merits of full flap landing. Never a dull moment when he flies.
Jim Meade Posted July 21, 2013 Report Posted July 21, 2013 I heard two flap extensions. I assume that is 0 to 15 and 15 to 30? They were very close together. Speed for 30 is 62 kias, so it looks like you slowed into the 60's at 0°, is that right? Nice landing.
Doug G. Posted July 21, 2013 Report Posted July 21, 2013 There seems to be some sort of fabric cover on the top of the panel? Or is there some sort of optical illusion going on there? It does not look like a standard CTLS mushroom top.
Runtoeat Posted July 22, 2013 Report Posted July 22, 2013 We carried 15 flaps @ 65 kts going into the start of the video. The two flap changes made were going to 30 then going to max 35 flaps on this CTLS. Short final approach speeds are normally about 50 to 55kts under these settings however I cannot say for certain what speed Phil used for this particular landing - too busy being the camerman. The mushroom covering is the standard "snag the microfiber window cleaning rag" material from the factory. Must just be the sun angle that makes it appear to be different. I wish I had the ability to get all of those who have never made a "good" full flap landing to go up with someone who is experienced using this technique (I'm still learning). There is so much more capability available in our CT's if full flaps are utilized. I'm not saying to use full flaps 100% but to just know that they are there and can provide both a needed tool during engine out landings and also provide a fun variable to use for short fields.
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