Doug G. Posted June 25, 2013 Report Share Posted June 25, 2013 CT, if the nozzle is grounded and you then bring it to the metal of the car, any potential difference between the two would cause a spark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 25, 2013 Report Share Posted June 25, 2013 John, I was struck by Andy's statement that there doesn't seem to be a consensus on how to ground [ and bond ] and I realized he was right and began searching. My conclusion is two-fold, first we should understand how to bond and ground correctly so that our precautions are effective and second we should understand best practices. I have a lifelong friend that almost died in a fueling accident and while searching found a number of anecdotes as well. One of the worst practices would be to fill plastic jugs in your truck and then fuel your plane after transporting them inside a bedliner. I'm sure thats been done by many of us many times, not following the best practices won't bite you right away and therefore we can see claims that they can be violated. The horror of this kind of accident cannot be overstated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 25, 2013 Report Share Posted June 25, 2013 CT, if the nozzle is grounded and you then bring it to the metal of the car, any potential difference between the two would cause a spark. Sparks occur all the time, very few ignite vapors and cause fire or explosion. I'm no expert but I think the potential would grow after you began pumping and increasing static charge and vapors began pouring out and there's enough O2 present, ...etc. As soon as you insert the nozzle you're bonded and grounded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdoc737 Posted June 25, 2013 Report Share Posted June 25, 2013 Here is my take on this issue with plastic gas cans. I drilled a small hole , just large enough to fit a stainless steel ball chain. You remember those from old fashioned light fixtures. It is long enough to reach the bottom of the can. I wrapped 5 wraps around the handle and secured it with Automotive Goop. The Goop is fuel proof and seals the hole. Then I just ground/ bond the plastic can like a metal can. Makes me feel better when I need to use the plastic can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted June 25, 2013 Report Share Posted June 25, 2013 I was never thrilled about plastic jugs. We always seemed to have plenty of metal cans. Chevron packed 2 - 5 gallon cans of avgas in a wooden box. We hung on to these for years and years. Now the seem to have disappeared and plastic is all we can get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted June 25, 2013 Report Share Posted June 25, 2013 Just read that one of the things that makes a plastic fuel containers legal is that they be made of conductive plastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted June 25, 2013 Report Share Posted June 25, 2013 Just read that one of the things that masks a plastic fuel containers legal is that they be made of conductive plastic. I was going to take a multimeter home tonight and check. I suspected they were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted June 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 So...what is the safest way to refuel (besides paying a lineman to do it)...? Metal can, bond aircraft to something big and grounded, keep in contact with airplane? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 26, 2013 Report Share Posted June 26, 2013 So...what is the safest way to refuel (besides paying a lineman to do it)...? Metal can, bond aircraft to something big and grounded, keep in contact with airplane? No you bond the fuel source to the fuel recipient plus a ground. Bonding and grounding the AC to something big and then pouring in fuel from plastic jugs is a little like getting in your car and to be safe buckling the seat belt on the empty seat next to you. Bonding the fuel source to the fuel recipient via a wire gives a potential discharge a safe route as opposed to a spark in a vapor rich area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 27, 2013 Report Share Posted June 27, 2013 Andy First ask yourself, can you bring a small fuel trailer to your hangar and can you afford one? It can be pretty cheap, I find 50 Gal to be big enough for me and I got a little trailer and AC pump to go with it. I don't own a 5-gal can Either way, trailer or cans, get yourself 1 3-way wire, or 2 wires to bond and ground. If you choose to only bond get 1 wire. Something like this can make a good ground and work outside or inside the hangar. One of these could make bonding easy. This would be more important than grounding. Its true a plastic jug probably conducts but it might also be true that things like fuel moving in your plastic jug, in your plastic truck liner, never touching the ground can build up a big static charge. My trailer has a 13gal/min pump on it and I bet that fuel moving in my tanks at that rate must build quite a charge too. Time to replace my worn equipment I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted June 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2013 CT, a fuel trailer is definitely part of my plan, but I don't want to break the bank on one, can you suggest some resources for that? 50 gallons would be sufficient, 100 would be better. Did you build your own or buy it complete? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 27, 2013 Report Share Posted June 27, 2013 Buy 3 components separately, at tank, a trailer kit, and a pump. these are examples from northern tool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted June 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2013 Actually CT, you can't (legally) use that tank for gasoline. For a DOT-approved tank for use with flammable liquids like gasoline, yo'd have to go to something more expensive, like this: http://www.northernt...09651_200609651 But at least it has the 12V pump, hose and nozzle included. Here's a very nice PDF of what one guy did, not cheap but very nice: http://www.flyunlead...FuelTrailer.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 27, 2013 Report Share Posted June 27, 2013 We started with the California Highway Patrol and reviewed the applicable code together. The chips sold us a code book and agreed they couldn't find a violation there. They said if we had fuel in open buckets they couldn't find a violation. I'm not saying that determination was right or wrong but it is what I went with and no issues in 7 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted June 27, 2013 Report Share Posted June 27, 2013 Hi Andy, There is a main post that talks about this. http://ctflier.com/i...uel-your-plane/ Here is another way some of our owners refuel. http://www.amazon.com/Tuff-Jug-5gal-Red-TJ1R/dp/B001AWGGD2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1372339195&sr=8-1&keywords=tuff+jug Plastic cans have been in use for 30 plus years and it doesn't seen to be a big issue. Using a little common sense goes a long way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted June 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2013 We started with the California Highway Patrol and reviewed the applicable code together. The chips sold us a code book and agreed they couldn't find a violation there. They said if we had fuel in open buckets they couldn't find a violation. I'm not saying that determination was right or wrong but it is what I went with and no issues in 7 years. Interesting, thanks. I'll do a little more research and see what it looks like around here. If it's legal in CA it can probably be done anywhere, LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 27, 2013 Report Share Posted June 27, 2013 ...Plastic cans have been in use for 30 plus years and it doesn't seen to be a big issue. Using a little common sense goes a long way. Just to be clear, you are advocating using plastic containers without a bonding wire? If so where is the common sense part? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted June 27, 2013 Report Share Posted June 27, 2013 Hi Ed, I didn't say that. It's all your choice. Most things in life carry some risk just like flying. You get to decide how much is acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 27, 2013 Report Share Posted June 27, 2013 Roger, ok, that's clear as mud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted June 27, 2013 Report Share Posted June 27, 2013 You hit the nail on the head, Ed. That's what risk are. Clear as mud. Some are minute risk some are large. Some are worth taking some aren't. What's acceptable to one isn't to another. Some risk change with the operators performance. That means the risk are higher for some and lower for others depending on how you put the odds in your favor. Look at all the risk takers in our society and they have far worse consequences verses using a plastic fuel jug. After 30 year as a firefighter and Hazmat tech using a plastic fuel jug under the right circumstance is an acceptable risk for me, but it may be a higher risk for the next guy because of the way he does it or he may not want to take any risk at all. Any fueling operation carries some risk even if it is a small one. Your a risk taker by flying over your Mnts. and others may see that as unacceptable, but you don't because you have a better understanding. You put the odds in your favor because of that understanding and knowledge of the area. Some pilots will never fly over your area or land at your airport because it carries risk. We all get to decide what risk level is acceptable to each of us. I have been a thrill seeking risk taker all my life, but I try to put the odds in my favor. For me no thrills equals a dull existence. So far I'm still here and in one piece with no bad consequences. My motorcycle is a bigger risk than my fueling habits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanik Posted June 27, 2013 Report Share Posted June 27, 2013 There is effectively zero risk to fueling with plastic jugs, mainly because you cannot avoid completely discharging yourself fondling the plane (which is very conductive for the purpose of static discharge as Roger said) and/or handling the fuel caps. It takes a pretty big spark to ignite a fuel air mixture so if you want to be extra sure or you ever feel some static grabbing the jugs out of the back seat or whatever, just grab the jug and touch the plane anywhere before fueling. You will find that there is no static left to equalize. I do a lot of testing for human and machine model static protection of circuits and such. There are many risks with flying but this isn't one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted June 27, 2013 Report Share Posted June 27, 2013 Don't know if it changes anything, but I always fill my tuff jugs out of the truck, I don't have a plastic liner in my truck bed. When I fuel I set the jugs on the hangar floor, get my ladder, set the jug on the ladder platform, remove the planes fuel cap and fill...rinse and repeat. Through the process I believe I, the plane, the ladder, and the jugs all end up at the same potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanik Posted June 27, 2013 Report Share Posted June 27, 2013 Ever hear not to get back in your car while fueling? That's because you can build up static rubbing against the carpet, seats, etc while ungrounded, then discharge when going back to the nozzle which can ignite fuel vapors. There are plenty of internet videos of this happening. And these are worth watching Though very rare they all have in common, cold, dry weather and someone rubbing synthetic clothing across plastic seats after starting to fuel and WITHOUT then touching the vehicle before reaching for the nozzle. If she would just have closed the door, she would have discharged to the door handle instead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted June 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2013 cold, dry weather and someone rubbing synthetic clothing across plastic seats after starting to fuel and WITHOUT then touching the vehicle before reaching for the nozzle. If she would just have closed the door, she would have discharged to the door handle instead Yup, the woman in that video looked like she was *trying* to get a spark, as much as she kept rubbing her clothing and shimmying on the car seat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted June 28, 2013 Report Share Posted June 28, 2013 That video must be the most dramatic, because it is the only one I have seen...over and over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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