Survey for Sport Pilots

[CT4ME]

July 3, 2013 - EAA and AOPA continue their joint efforts to have the FAA grant a third-class medical exemption for private pilots who fly noncomplex aircraft, and you can help.

The petition was submitted in March 2012, and the two organizations recently received indications that the FAA sought more data related to the rate of medically related incidents among pilots flying under sport pilot rules. This data will help the FAA decide whether to allow private pilots or better to fly day VFR, four-seat (with one passenger), 180-hp-maximum aircraft using a self-certification medical standard and a driver's license in lieu of a traditional third-class FAA medical.

EAA is asking all pilots currently flying under sport pilot rules - either certificated sport pilots or private pilots exercising sport pilot privileges - to complete a brief survey to better document the amount of hours flown by this segment of the pilot population. Data will be used to paint a clearer picture of how many pilots fly under these rules and for how many hours each year. No personally identifiable information will be collected.

tim

[FlyingMonkey]

Everybody should fill this out, for what it's worth.

[WmInce]

. . . "Everybody should fill this out, for what it's worth." . . .

 

Concur totally.

If the FAA approves it, I predict we will see a notable expansion of interest in general aviation, which is sorely needed.

[CT4ME]

I guess the downside is... it could kill (or seriously hurt) LSA...

tim

[sandpiper]

You never know. Pretty cheap hourly for gas with the 912. But, you could throttle one of those old tech aluminum RV-6's back to 5 gph and still out run a CT with better mpg. Some of them even have FI. No BRS though.

[Adam]

I am a healthy guy... but so many of my friends are forever screwing around trying to either get their medical renewed or keep their medical intact that I have been totally turned off by the whole 3rd class medical process. As a Sport Pilot I can fulfill my mission (chasing hamburgers on a nice day) in a capable modern aircraft (CTLSi). Having said all that, if the FAA allows Private Pilots to fly without a medical using a drivers license and self certification I'd upgrade my license in a few months so I can play with larger aircraft (C4?).

[FlyingMonkey]

That's what happened with me Adam. I could get a class 3 but I'm 47 and starting to hit the age where things break. Plus I always try to minimize the footprint of the Fedcoats in my life.

[CT2kflyer]

I'm of two minds on this.

 

Frankly, day-light VFR is about all the flying I want to do. If they pass the 3rd Class Medical exemption for PPL flyers, one might think that current Sport Pilot Certified flyers might be waivered up into the heavier weight aircraft classes of more than 1320 lbs' --- say a Cessna 150, 172, 177 or a Piper Cherokee 180......... whatever. What I see happening though, is a waiver granted for PPL holders, and subsequently Sport Pilots not being granted what is essentially a weight upgrade to the aircraft they can fly. The result is that my existing S-LSA loses value big-time, and I get no benefit in what I can fly. There is nothing in the proposed rule waivers that benefit Sport Pilots...... it's all directed at older PPL holders There is nothing to say that I will be able to upgrade to PPL since they may still require that medical for the initial issuance of your ticket. Remember it's a waiver......... not a rule change.

 

Frankly, ASTM standards have been driving innovation in aircraft manufacturing and avionics big-time......... inexpensive Glass Panels, Aviation GPS, AOA installs, IPAD based instrumentation, whole aircraft parachute installs, ADS-B fixes....... the whole range of weight-saving, reliable, innovative, safety enhancing improvements that are being driven by the Experimental and Sport Aircraft industries. We risk slowing or stopping all of the above......... to keep antique General Aviation Aircraft and their equally antique pilots in the air a little longer. The removal of antique aircraft from the aircraft supply-pool (ground aircraft older than say 30 years of age) might do more to boost the Sport Pilot Community and it's manufacturing base, than anything else we could do........... I'm not advocating that, but swords generally have two edges.

 

The 3rd Class medical makes no economic or safety sense at all.......... but unless some provision is made to maintain some of the few advantages that the Sport Aircraft Industry gets from manufacturing to ASTM requirements and the push to lighten aircraft weight while enhancing performance, the S-LSA fleet is going to get hurt........ probably big-time. .............. Why would someone pay $132,000 for a CTLSi when you can buy a good Cherokee 180 for $42,000? The cost differential between 5 GPH and 9 GPH is about $25/hr........ we're talking about 3,600 hours of flight-time paid for in-advance by buying the Cherokee........ you do the math. No depreciation and a life-times worth of pre-paid flying to go with the GA aircraft. How does this help the S-LSA industry??

 

Now, if the FAA wanted to increase the weight limits of S-LSA aircraft to say....... 1700 lbs or 1,800 lbs - we might be discussing ways that the ASTM standards could be used to enhance safety, comfort, stability, etc,.................

 

But That's Not The Discussion We're Having..........................

[FlyingMonkey]

CT2kflyer, I agree that the 3rd class is a joke. It provides nothing in terms of safety and is a bureaucratic nightmare for pilots and a burden for the FAA to maintain. The five plus years of Sport Pilot rules has borne this out. AFAIK, there has been not one documented aircraft accident by sport pilots or privates exercising sport privileges caused by medical incapacitation. That aside, there is no reason that a 1320lb airplane is safe for self-certifying pilots but a 1500lb airplane would be a menace.

 

However, I'm not sure these rules would kill the value of our LSAs. After all, they are (relatively) new airplanes. New airplanes are hideously expensive. I would not expect used CTs to suddenly go down in value 25%, if for no other reason than FD would not reduce their prices for new ones. I used to think "who would buy a new or even used CT for $70k+ when you could get a used 152 for $20k." That was before I flew one. The answer now is: I would. The CT is so far ahead of the 152 in every way (except maybe ease of landing) that it's no contest. Range, speed, useful load, features...all are beyond the 152 and I think many people would continue to recognize that.

[CT2kflyer]

MrMorden:

 

Well, "I'm not sure these rules would kill the value of our LSAs"..... either.

 

But I'm darned sure the rule waivers won't enhance the value of our LSAs or the Sport Aircraft Manufacturing base - can't.......... it will eliminate a class of potential buyers .....on that I'm absolutely sure. And yes.. the C152 is behind the CT in range, speed, useful load, etc............ but it's paid for. It's all already paid for. Most new flyers don't have the $132,000 for a new aircraft......... but a used C152........ that's probably doable for those that want to do.....

 

It's the opposite of chicken soup for a cold; instead of "can't hurt, might help".......... we are looking at " might hurt, can't help". There is no help in there for the SP community.... not that I can see.

 

The 3rd Class Medical is stupid, inefficient, and counter-productive - and all of those things help the Sport Pilot Industry........... that's why we exist actually.

[WmInce]

I am a healthy guy... but so many of my friends are forever screwing around trying to either get their medical renewed or keep their medical intact that I have been totally turned off by the whole 3rd class medical process. As a Sport Pilot I can fulfill my mission (chasing hamburgers on a nice day) in a capable modern aircraft (CTLSi). Having said all that, if the FAA allows Private Pilots to fly without a medical using a drivers license and self certification I'd upgrade my license in a few months so I can play with larger aircraft (C4?).

 

Adam,

Concur 100%.

[Jim Meade]

MrMorden:

 

Well, "I'm not sure these rules would kill the value of our LSAs"..... either.

 

But I'm darned sure the rule waivers won't enhance the value of our LSAs or the Sport Aircraft Manufacturing base - can't.......... it will eliminate a class of potential buyers .....on that I'm absolutely sure. And yes.. the C152 is behind the CT in range, speed, useful load, etc............ but it's paid for. It's all already paid for. Most new flyers don't have the $132,000 for a new aircraft......... but a used C152........ that's probably doable for those that want to do.....

 

It's the opposite of chicken soup for a cold; instead of "can't hurt, might help".......... we are looking at " might hurt, can't help". There is no help in there for the SP community.... not that I can see.

 

The 3rd Class Medical is stupid, inefficient, and counter-productive - and all of those things help the Sport Pilot Industry........... that's why we exist actually.

 

But these same pilots could go out and buy a Champ or other LSA equivalent for <$30K and could make a Sonex for probably less than $50K so I'm not convinced that this is an issue. The people who claim they would fly LSA if they were as cheap as a C150 can fly as cheap as a C150 but you seldom see them doing it.

[FlyingMonkey]

I'm not claiming I know for sure what would happen in the market. It's complicated, and trying to predict how people will behave is often fraught with risk.

 

There are probably a lot of factors influencing things that manufacturers are aware of that most of us have no idea about, also. Hard to figure out what might happen when you have incomplete information.

[Doug G.]

parse?

[Farmer]

I fly the light sport because I like the aircraft. I have a annual check up to obtain the class 8 CDL A truck driver license. That truck medical has higher standards than the class 3 medical. I would consider something modern like the C 4 if I could self certify. The problem with the current system is there is no going back. Just because you pass the doctors exam and provide necessary documents does not guarentee a FAA medical. I have flown complex older aircraft, not the experence that many have had, but enough for me. I do not want to fly old aircraft anymore, just travel and have some fun.

 

My wife hopes that I can pay taxes for a while longer, so I would not take chances and fly if I did not feel up to par. I like looking outside, during the day, without clouds. There will always be looser and winners as changes are made to regulations, however I hope the FAA gives reasonable consideration to the safety of this proposed change..Being somewhat selfish I hope they make this change in time so many of us could enjoy this new challange.

 

Farmer

[sandpiper]

I'm betting that the LSA pilot field is dominated by "old timer pilots". Yet medical related accidents and incidents seem to be non existent. As opposed to some holding first class medicals.

[207WF]

The economics of this seem pretty simple to me. You have a group of customers restricted to one product (LSA) and then you remove that restriction. In the short run some of them want other products and with a fixed supply of LSA the price of the existing LSA drop. In the longer run, you might attract new buyers into the market to offset that effect, because you have reduced a cost of flying, and/or you might get a change in the number of LSA produced and thus the supply. However, my guess is all this is likely moot. Think from the perspective of the FAA medical bureaucrats. This would cut their business by some large percent. Any bureaucrat worth his salt will stall, fight, evade and try anything he can think of to avoid such a change. WF

[FlyingMonkey]

IIRC the average age of the entire pilot population is over 50. Instead of "old timer pilots" you could have just said "pilots". Very few teens or twenty somethings have the time or money needed to fly for recreation.

[Jim Meade]

The medicos will claim that to a large extent, their procedures are required by public law or are the result of strong pressures from congress critters, especially those who sit on committees which oversee aviation.

 

Don't reply to me. I am not supporting them. I am just telling you what they would tell you if they bothered.

 

Look at the 1500 hour rule recently put through as a result of strong congressional pressure. Will it save lives? Pretty unlikely, as it was not the cause of the crash, but it is a response to the fact that congress and the public can cause stronger pressure than aviation advocates.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that the FAA has some old fashioned medical criteria that they should address, particularly in what meds you can take and in some conditions like ADD. Part of that kind of issue is that general practice doctors will prescribe without any clue of what that diagnosis or medicine will do to a 3rd class medical app. To that extent, I agree with your premise that the FAA is part of their own problem.