Ed Cesnalis Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 After all these years in my CTSW I have mentally changed my landing technique. In the past, timing the round out was the most difficult portion of my landings, I was keeping my descent unaltered until the last moment, relying on time left before nose wheel contact to judge when to round out. I got thru my transition training in 1 hour partly because I had a good sense of where the ground was and could manage the energy in my landings with flaps and without throttle. Yesterday it occurred to me on approach to call out 20' so I could round out below 20' and not so close to the ground. The visualization worked well, I can see a 20' tall opening like a hangar door opening to fly thru resulting in a less dramatic round out that is easier to judge. A 2nd revelation is that the sooner I reach the aft stop on the stick, which of course you cannot do without climbing prior to getting behind the power curve, the slower my sink is. I sank from a few feet, at the aft stop, with throttle closed and had a very soft contact. With my newly adjusted trim I find that if I trim my nose very low, low enough to approach at 55 with full flaps and no pressure that I am rewarded with a lot of aft stick travel to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 I recall having been taught to begin the roundout about one wingspan above the ground. That lets you adjust for when you fly larger planes. That said, I think most pilots end up doing it automatically. Still, its a good mental image to impart to a beginning pilot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted August 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 I recall having been taught to begin the roundout about one wingspan above the ground. That lets you adjust for when you fly larger planes. That said, I think most pilots end up doing it automatically. Still, its a good mental image to impart to a beginning pilot. In a CTSW with the throttle closed a full flap approach is quite steep. The sight picture might add to this sensation. In my 172 a visualization like this would be unneeded but in my CT its a good timing aid even after 1,000+ landings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 I must come in a lot slower than you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted August 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 I must come in a lot slower than you. Its the nature of the air I think. The runway that I use 75% of the time usually has a small gaggle of turkey vultures soaring the thermal on short final and just over the numbers is the big sink. You just have more air and its more stable. I know much of the issue is pilot error on this landing but it does a good job of illustrating how unwanted lift can get you out of position on approach and beyond it is rapid sink, especially if you stall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted August 6, 2013 Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 Now I understand what you mean by a full stall landing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted August 6, 2013 Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 Should 'a wore his Air Jordans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knolde Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 Full flap landings--yes I have done them-no, I do not do them as a matter of course. Since about February I have had an ill wife, I have been a full time care-giver--a situation, if you think about it, does not leave much time to fly. Since mid-January of this year my longest flight was the other day, 55 minutes, but I have, I believe, maintained a high degree of proficiency. I have decided or learned, like many aviators before me, that we all do things (landing, takeoff, navigate, fly from point to point etc.) in a very similar manner as dictated by the commonality of training we received. I have had differences with such august members of this forum as Fast Eddie, Charlie Tango, Jim Meade et al. In trying to maintain proficiency I thought about how we approach flying, I made several assumptions: first was that we all enjoy flying and we do it rather well; secondly we get to the same point similarly, but with markedly different approaches to consistency. It occurs to me that we are all correct because we have resolved the consistency issue by technique. In fact it occurred to me technique, individual adaptions if you will, ensure that we do things in a manner that is easier (adapted) for us and we use them almost with thinking to accomplish the complex tasks flying requires. From my perspective it is not the rote operations we learned to solo and get our first ratings, no it is the way we have developed techniques to successfully fly. It also tends to explain the passion with which we approach "how we do it." I re-read Richard Bach's "Jonathan Livingston Seagull" and we are him. So through these many discussions, I have expanded my understanding of flying (particularly the CT) and yes, technique is the lifeblood of flying. Oh yes, staying proficient through 30 minute flights means that you get intimately familiar with the home field traffic pattern. Just as an oh-by-the-way, I tend to keep the nose down and flair gently letting the aircraft settle--I look to the side to determine altitude--not down the runway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted August 12, 2013 Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 May your wife get better soon. I have not experienced that with a spouse but know people who have. Short flights here and there have got to be a tremendous stress reliever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted August 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2013 30 minutes in my CT is something I often do, it can have a lot of value. I wish your wife well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liltaka Posted August 14, 2013 Report Share Posted August 14, 2013 Question.... I had 13 hours in Evektor Sportstar then I switched to CT and feeling a bit lost.... I was doing 100% of takeoff / landings on the Evektor I had a full control of the aircraft at all times while doing the patterns My instructor told me I was 1-2 hours away from "solo flight" Takeoff - Flap on 15, pull the stick back as far as possible, full throttle, right rudder, liftoff around 57k - Upon the liftoff, drop nose slightly to avoid stall, increase airspeed while keeping the right rudder pressure Left downwind - 800-900 AGL / 4500rpm / 80k - Near passing the end of runway, carb on, fuel pump on, drop to 3500RPM - Drop airspeed to less than 70k, then flap to 15 Base - 600-700 AGL / 3500RPM / 55-60k - Continue dropping altitude Final - Flap 30 / 3500RPM / maintain 55k-60k - Near the runway 200-300AGL, throttle to idle, drop the nose a little to maintain airspeed - 20-30ft off the ground, pull nose up to level flight and continue flying down on the runway - Several feet off the ground, ground effect will occur and wait for the final "sink", then pull nose a little Post Touch down - Gradual increase of the pressure to pull nose gear off the ground as long as possible I was able to do this repeatedly... Then, I am flying CT now and above rules just disappeared on me and I am a bit "lost".... I can't even feel any wind in CT and also can't even do "crabbing" during the patterns anymore... On top of that, I don't feel ground effect on CT before the touchdown... What are the norm / standard for CT, like I was doing on the Sportstar? What should I do to get my confidence back, so I will be pre solo level again? I am having a hard time adjusting my takeoff/landing from Sportstar, but I like CT so much that I want to master this aircraft ASAP! I cannot wait for my first solo...if and when I get my confidence back...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted August 14, 2013 Report Share Posted August 14, 2013 The CT is high wing and the Evektor is low wing, so there will be some difference in when the ground effect is felt. The high wing is less "cushiony" than the low wing. It's a good idea to review the POH or AOI including any supplements for your aircraft. The SW is pathetic in these terms; the LS is somewhat better in providing recommendations for pattern work. I would not hesitate to use the LS AOI to inform my understanding of the SW, recognizing that it may not be identical. Your rpm seems high in the pattern. Your speeds and flap settings are fine. What specifically are you uncomfortable with in the CT? And is it an LS or SW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted August 14, 2013 Report Share Posted August 14, 2013 Takeoff - Flap on 15, pull the stick back as far as possible, full throttle, right rudder, liftoff around 57k - Upon the liftoff, drop nose slightly to avoid stall, increase airspeed while keeping the right rudder pressure That does not sound like a normal takeoff. Normally in a nosewheel aircraft the elevator is held neutral, then slight back pressure is applied just before or at the published rotation speed. What you describe sounds like a soft field takeoff. Were you operating fom a soft field? As to the rest, I concur with Jim. At this point in your career, every little difference between aircraft is magnified, and they can all seem completely different. As you fly more and more different planes, eventually the commonalities begin to come forward, and eventually they all start to feel pretty much the same, with small but significant differences. Switching horses in midstream may feel like a frustrating setback, but you're gaining valuable experience and it will all come together soon - I promise! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted August 14, 2013 Report Share Posted August 14, 2013 Ed, my first impression was the same as yours. The LS AOI suggest that as soon as the aircraft accelerates, pull back slightly on the stick to unload the nose. My practice is to then try to hold the nose just inches off the runway. I don't know what paranoid set the FD and Rotax pdf so they can't be easily copied, but it is a disservice. Many of us would cut and paste official instructions rather than paraphrase or repeat from memory with the resultant chance of misquoting. Roger - when you read this - I think you figured out how to copy these docs? Can you remind me? TIA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted August 14, 2013 Report Share Posted August 14, 2013 On my iPad and Mac, I can capture a screenshot, upload it to Flickr, then post the link here. Clumsy, but it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted August 14, 2013 Report Share Posted August 14, 2013 Grumble, clumsy is right. Still, good to know. I don't use an iPad for internet work, but maybe my PC will do a screen shot. I don't do Flickr, or any other misspelled programs (except fltplan.com), either, (grumble snort). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted August 14, 2013 Report Share Posted August 14, 2013 Flickr is free, and a great place to post photos or screen shots you want to post elsewhere. On a Mac, there's a Flickr button in iPhoto that makes it really easy. On a PC, probably nearly as easy to upload from the desktop. On an iPad or iPhone there's a Flickr app, though grabbing the link to the uploaded photo is a bit convoluted, though it is possible. Dropbox is also an option, and there are others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted August 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2013 you don't need Flickr or an outside box, upload here as you post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted August 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2013 I don't have any time in a sportstar but I'm sure the CTSW flies different. The CTSW has a confusing sight picture, you can't see the nose, crabbing is harder to see. The sight picture on approach is likely more nose down. The CTSW is quite rudder dominant, use your feet, begin your turns with rudder. Why not simplify your approach? slow to 80kts on downwind before you are abeam the numbers. When you are abeam, got to 15, (if you want 30, just hold the nose level for a few seconds, slow to 62 and deploy 30, put the nose down so the drooped wing tip is level.) Now you are ready to finish downwind, fly base and final all in 1 configuration and at 1 speed. 55 works fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted August 14, 2013 Report Share Posted August 14, 2013 The CTSW is basically a prototype of the current FD models in production. The flight characteristics of the shorter wing SW are substantially different and predictably less stable than the current CTLSi being made and sold. So...the CT2K is a "prototype of a prototype"? Is a 2005 BMW a prototype of a 2012 BMW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted August 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2013 I think the prototype was a Pegasus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted August 14, 2013 Report Share Posted August 14, 2013 I think the prototype was a Pegasus I think you're limiting the proper scope here. Prototype #1: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted August 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2013 Pegasus CT - Technical Data Weight (Empty) 265kg Weight (Gross) 450kg Length 20ft 4" Wingspan 30ft 6" Engine Rotax 912 Prop 2 or 3 Blade composite Cruise Speed 130mph Vne 175mph Stall Speed (Clean) 50mph Stall Speed (Full Flap) 39mph Climb Rate 1054 feet/min Range 1196 miles (at 92mph) Take off Roll 774ft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted August 14, 2013 Report Share Posted August 14, 2013 I think you're limiting the proper scope here. Prototype #1: You can tell it's a prototype because there is no carbon fiber or fuel injection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted August 14, 2013 Report Share Posted August 14, 2013 Pegasus CT - Technical Data Weight (Empty) 265kg Weight (Gross) 450kg Length 20ft 4" Wingspan 30ft 6" Engine Rotax 912 Prop 2 or 3 Blade composite Cruise Speed 130mph Vne 175mph Stall Speed (Clean) 50mph Stall Speed (Full Flap) 39mph Climb Rate 1054 feet/min Range 1196 miles (at 92mph) Take off Roll 774ft Cool, I had never seen that before! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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