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Advise a buyer on a 2004 2K vs a 2006 SW... both nice birds?


Acensor

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Guess that depends where you draw the line fir "new."

I flew a 2006 SW yesterday and it had three way electric trim. Owner said he's almost never use anything but pitch trim.

 

I changed my post. I was not thinking that someone might have installed electric trim after the airplane was built. 

I guess never say never!

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Electric pitch trim is a godsend in the new CT.  It is used more than the stick nearly.  The other trim are still manual and never touched.  The AP may make aileron and rudder trim, but manual flying can do without it.  I wouldn't own the CTLSi if it still had all manual trim, esp pitch trim, its that critical.  Its used in cruise and especially in base and final on every landing.  Keeping the CT nose down in slow flight on those turns is more critical than at any other time in flight.  And the electric trim is a perfect tool to tweek that process.

 

Like I said in another thread, "you don't understand your aircraft systems".

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Electric pitch trim is a godsend in the new CT.  It is used more than the stick nearly.  The other trim are still manual and never touched.  The AP may make aileron and rudder trim, but manual flying can do without it.  I wouldn't own the CTLSi if it still had all manual trim, esp pitch trim, its that critical.  Its used in cruise and especially in base and final on every landing.  Keeping the CT nose down in slow flight on those turns is more critical than at any other time in flight.  And the electric trim is a perfect tool to tweek that process.

Actually on both of our CTLS, pitch trim is extremely easy, and extremely precise, despite being manual. The rudder and aileron trim leaves something to be desired, but those don't require much adjustment.

 

I am not sure about the CTLSi, but in my mooney, the electric trim tends to overshoot when I need fine adjustment. Since mooneys are extremely fast aircraft, tiny tiny adjustments translates into quite considerable pitch and airspeed changes, so I will use the trim wheel once i am in the ballpark.

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I don't find the CT requires a lot of trim, its very light on the controls all around when compared to Cessna's, Cirrus, etc.  Not that I don't use trim while flying and teaching in the CT but its not hard using the manual wheel.  Electric trim is nice and handy but really not a necessity for flying the CT or any plane for that matter.

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Really?  How does your CTLSi operate?   The electric trim is a critical and central capability of the CTLSi.  That feature alone makes it superior to earlier models lacking it. 

 

The feature is also considered central by Flight Design, they even put an elevator trim meter prominently in the middle of the EMS panel because they know what a game changer it is when flying the aircraft.

 

I can't compare it to what a Mooney has, never flown one, and for those who have not flown a CLTSi and used the electric trim will not be able to judge how effective and how well it works.  But since I do fly the aircraft, and do use the electric trim, I can report, most of the time when in cruise, and when landing, my hand is on the trim switch relieving stick pressure when descending onto base and final.

 

Of course, the reposition of the trim to mid range is on the checklist (from POH) for both runup, when ascending on a touch and go, and when idling back at the ramp after the flight just before engine shutdown.

 

 

In manual trim on a CTLS, you aren't going to roll it more than half a spin for takeoff. We're talking small trim wheels here, so half a spin is just rolling your index finger across it with a quick swipe. I could probably get my CTLS in trim faster than you can with your electric, that's how simple and quick they made it.

 

This is in stark contrast to a mooney; I've flown it without electric trim, and it SUUUUUCKS without it, because you're spinning and spinning and spinning that trim wheel with full arm strokes.

 

With that said, CT's don't need electric trim; it's just a nice thing to have.

 

Also I'm curious, where is the pitch trim servo located? Do you get a manual pitch trim wheel?

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Really?  How does your CTLSi operate?   The electric trim is a critical and central capability of the CTLSi.  That feature alone makes it superior to earlier models lacking it. 

 

The feature is also considered central by Flight Design, they even put an elevator trim meter prominently in the middle of the EMS panel because they know what a game changer it is when flying the aircraft.

 

Um...no. The reason that they put the trim indicator in a prominent spot is because knowing your trim setting is a safety of flight issue. Knowing trim is central, electric or not has nothing to do with it.

 

Why is electric trim superior? You have a trim control, I have a trim control. You have a trim indicator, I have a trim indicator. You have an electrical switch that can fail or lose power, I have...well, a robust trim wheel. I have flown airplanes with electric trim, they are harder to be precise with, because you have to anticipate the electric motor, it's like having a middle man in the control process.

 

Electric trim is fine, but it don't see how it's functionally superior. A convenience, sure.

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1) "Flying the trim" is seen to be a bad habit that instructors, especially instrument instructors, are on the alert for.

 

Why? It tends to lead to imprecise flying. It obviously can work, since autopilots typically use trim and are very precise. But when hand flying, controls should be moved authoritatively with pressure, with trim used secondarily to relieve the need for constant pressure.

 

 

2) My plane has had intermittent but very annoying electric trim issues. When problems like this crop up, it makes me long for the simplicity of a manual trim wheel - at least as a backup.

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Most of my flying experience has been in light twins and singles. Most had manual trim only but some had both. In those with both, for example a C-206, I seldom used the electric trim. My preference was manual with maybe a bump of electric to fine tune. Usually I just ignored it.

 

It certainly is not necessary on any CT, nor any other plane I have flown. Can't speak to the Mooney or, say, a B-777.

 

For most of what we fly, light piston singles, it comes down to personal preference. Some like it, some don't. Just like electric flaps vs. manual. Personally I prefer manual trim and flaps. But, that's me. Doesn't make it right, wrong, better, or worse.

 

Life was sure simpler in Henry Fords day. You could have your new Ford in any color you wanted as long as it was black.

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Three way electric trim? Where did he get that? Is it factory or owner installed?

I need to correct my post: Almost certainly the 2006 CTSW I flew did not have electric three way trim.

 

It was three way trim. Based on replies here and thinking back, not electric.
I imagined thinking back, wrongly, it was electric, because (a) I was thinking electric because I was experiencing and enjoying the, unique to my experience out of a bare bones ELSA, electric flaps and (b ) it took so little pressure to turn the trim wheel.
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Electric pitch trim is a godsend in the new CT.  It is used more than the stick nearly.  The other trim are still manual and never touched.  The AP may make aileron and rudder trim, but manual flying can do without it.  I wouldn't own the CTLSi if it still had all manual trim, esp pitch trim, its that critical.  Its used in cruise and especially in base and final on every landing.  Keeping the CT nose down in slow flight on those turns is more critical than at any other time in flight.  And the electric trim is a perfect tool to tweek that process.

 

 

 

 

My statement that you don't understand you aircraft systems was based in this instance on this statement. If you are using the trim nearly as much as the stick you clearly don't understand what the trim is there for. Either your instructor has taught you wrong, or most likely you are to smart to listen to them and do things your own way.

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Bill comes from the ATP world...I think he was referring to what is used on "real" airplanes, not our little puddle jumpers, and refuting that electric trim is somehow new, advanced technology. :)

I guess it would be cool (although not a big deal for our light planes) for those that have electric trim to couple that to an AP that supports autotrim.  Don't believe Dynon supports it (?) yet but Trutrak and Trio do.

 

BTW -- my apologies for putting us down the 3-axis electric trim path.  I made the wrong assumption that's how CTs implemented the feature.

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Well, I got to examine and fly the CTSW this weekend. Liked it very much. Much impressive about it. Handling is, believe it or not, not quite as nice as my Skyranger (to be fair I have hundreds of hours in the Skyranger and only 30 minutes in the CTSW.) Clearly a great cross country aircraft.

 

Main reason I didn't buy it was my potential co-owner, who is 6 foot 7inches, was just a bit too cramped in it for a long trip and backed out.... and buying it and maintaining it on my own is just too far to stretch, particularly considering I already have an aircraft Iove to fly.

 

As a courtesy to the owner I have posted it under for sale with some photos. Here's the very short version:

----------------

2006 Flight Design CTSW    N906LW      1065 TTAE

Autopilot w/alt hold, Ballistic parachute

Garmin 496,  Dynon Avionics , engine electric pre-heater, more.

Always Hangered

Asking $69,900

-----------------------

 

For more details and owner contact look in the for sale section.

 

Thanks for all the advice and help here.... but for now it looks like I'm not going to be a CT owner.

 

Alex

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  • 5 months later...

Hello,

 

My first post, to defend my 2k :)

It's a wonderful forum with amazing expertise and threads.

About the 2k: I have a 2003 and flew 350 hours in the last 3,5 years ( I know, but that's Belgian weather...) . I love it, it's a big bunch of pleasure, but it's NOT faster than my friends sw. There are great improvements made from 2k to sw, but still some people prefer to drive an old 911 rather than a newer model.

 

Keep the great posting on the forum going !

 

Cedric

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Hello,

 

My first post, to defend my 2k :)

It's a wonderful forum with amazing expertise and threads.

About the 2k: I have a 2003 and flew 350 hours in the last 3,5 years ( I know, but that's Belgian weather...) . I love it, it's a big bunch of pleasure, but it's NOT faster than my friends sw. There are great improvements made from 2k to sw, but still some people prefer to drive an old 911 rather than a newer model.

 

Keep the great posting on the forum going !

 

Cedric

 

Welcome aboard Cedric! :)

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Hello,

 

My first post, to defend my 2k :)

It's a wonderful forum with amazing expertise and threads.

About the 2k: I have a 2003 and flew 350 hours in the last 3,5 years ( I know, but that's Belgian weather...) . I love it, it's a big bunch of pleasure, but it's NOT faster than my friends sw. There are great improvements made from 2k to sw, but still some people prefer to drive an old 911 rather than a newer model.

 

Keep the great posting on the forum going !

 

Cedric

 

Hey Cedric, welcome!

 

I think you will find that most folks here have a great appreciation for all the CT models.  Each has good points compared to the others.  The CTLS is heavier than the CTSW, but more refined and stable.  The CT2K is probably lighter and more fuel efficient than both the CTSW and CTLS.  The CTLSi is the fuel efficiency king, but at the penalties of even slightly higher weight and higher cost. 

 

They are all great airplanes!

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