Has NASA lost its way?

[Roger Lee]

Hi Ed,

 

Sometimes the difference between a flower and  a weed is perception.    Take a second look.

 

I didn't ask anyone to leave nor do I own the forum. As a member I ask that people to use good common sense judgment like most other forum members do to prevent aggressive animosity laced commentary. I gets old, serves absolutely no purpose and causes dissension. This type of posting causes a forum to degrade and people to become offended and leave and that's not the mark of a healthy fun informative forum, nor is a place that FD would want to associate with..

 

It serves no REAL purpose, but to agitate. 

If anyone leaves it's own their own accord.

 

You have always had a lot to offer, why would want you to leave?

Unless a forum member just can't bring it upon themselves to be decent to other forum members why would they feel so oppressed to want to leave? 

 

Sometimes us old adults need to step back and look at the whole picture. We tend to become narrow in focus and forget about the world around us, whether it is 2' away or 6K miles away.

[FastEddieB]

It's been nixed before, but let me again suggest a sub-forum just for Politics/Religion/whatever.

 

COPA has Hot Section.

 

Pilots of America has Spin Zone.

 

Some of my motorcycle sites have "Jo Momma". From the i-bmw site, the following warning: "JoMomma A.K.A. Darwin's Waiting Room. WARNING: Can't take the heat?? Are you uncomfortable with POLITICAL DISCOURSE? - DO NOT ENTER. Be forewarned this forum contains some posts that are not appropriate for general viewing and are not work suitable!"

 

One advantage is grown adults can choose to engage in controversial subjects that they are passionate about. And other grown adults can simply choose not to engage. On the Pilots of America site you actually have to opt in to even see Spin Zone posts at all.

 

The other advantage is that aviation-related threads will tend to be less likely to be polluted by politics or religion or whatever if members have a place to go for that sort of thing.

 

Just a (recurring) thought.

[Anticept]

I strongly support a hot section. Having run several forums, both large and small, once people get into a heated argument, you tell them to take it to the hot section.

 

Everyone gets it out of their system, and leaves the rest of the forum rather cooled off.

[Roger Lee]

Why does anyone need cooling off or feel the need to engage in a rage type conversation? There are plenty of other forums to rage and loose control on, we don't need it.

Then after you have done that what did it accomplish. For me engaging my mind's verbal assault clutch before I hit send and having a mental rehearsal of mental calm keeps my stroke and heart attack chances at a lower level. (I hope. LOL) That type of behavior releases bad hormones, plus It solved nothing and feel like a jerk later for lowering myself to someone else's level. I always feel like intelligent people have no reason to feel threatened by words and smart enough not to engage in that harmful behavior. It destroys friendships, marriages and work environments. It's like a drug, allow it to grow and it becomes a force hard to control.

Like religions around the world teach to turn the other cheek and walk away. Religious or not it's a good practice.

 

Turn the other cheek and walk away Grasshopper. LoL

[FlyingMonkey]

MovingOn has engaged in this sort of bomb throwing on Sportpilottalk as well, where he turns innocent threads into political arguments and then blames everybody else. He just became the first person to make my ignore list.

[Anticept]

Why does anyone need cooling off or feel the need to engage in a rage type conversation? There are plenty of other forums to rage and loose control on, we don't need it.

Then after you have done that what did it accomplish. For me engaging my mind's verbal assault clutch before I hit send and having a mental rehearsal of mental calm keeps my stroke and heart attack chances at a lower level. (I hope. LOL) That type of behavior releases bad hormones, plus It solved nothing and feel like a jerk later for lowering myself to someone else's level. I always feel like intelligent people have no reason to feel threatened by words and smart enough not to engage in that harmful behavior. It destroys friendships, marriages and work environments. It's like a drug, allow it to grow and it becomes a force hard to control.

Like religions around the world teach to turn the other cheek and walk away. Religious or not it's a good practice.

Turn the other cheek and walk away Grasshopper. LoL

If only the world worked that way. If it did, I don't think we would be having this discussion. Sometimes, you just need to get something off your chest.

 

Words are powerful. If you tried to say "it's just words" to good writers, they would show you why that isn't always true. Words have calmed storms, and started revolutions.

 

Remember roger, for all the tolerance that you preach, you also need to be tolerant of different personalities and situations . Some people have a need to vent, others will leave before it gets too much for them. Pilots are no different. For you, just brushing off the conversation works. For me, once in a while someone can say something that will get under my skin, but i try to take the same "brush off" approach. But, For some personality types though, particularly when they are deeply passionate about an issue, brushing it off only makes it worse. What if they want to do something about the problem, even if they are just a tiny voice in a sea of many (ex: CharlieTango on NASA)? When people try to ignore the problem, or tell them to chill, it only makes it worse, because that is the same as adding another obstacle in the path of a solution they are working towards.

 

All things in moderation is the best approach roger. As a personal approach for me, if something keeps upsetting me, I try to see address it rather than ignore it. If it finally results in a resolution, then it was worth being upset about. If I can't resolve it, I will try to tune it out, or just get up and leave. We're seeing this progression with the problems that are cropping up on this forum, but we keep resorting to the "let it resolve itself" mentality, and people are leaving. Hands off approaches works for the most part, but it isn't always the answer to everything. If it was, then we wouldn't have government!

[ralarcon]

Why does anyone need cooling off or feel the need to engage in a rage type conversation? There are plenty of other forums to rage and loose control on, we don't need it.

Then after you have done that what did it accomplish. For me engaging my mind's verbal assault clutch before I hit send and having a mental rehearsal of mental calm keeps my stroke and heart attack chances at a lower level. (I hope. LOL) That type of behavior releases bad hormones, plus It solved nothing and feel like a jerk later for lowering myself to someone else's level. I always feel like intelligent people have no reason to feel threatened by words and smart enough not to engage in that harmful behavior. It destroys friendships, marriages and work environments. It's like a drug, allow it to grow and it becomes a force hard to control.

Like religions around the world teach to turn the other cheek and walk away. Religious or not it's a good practice.

 

Turn the other cheek and walk away Grasshopper. LoL

Without rage, I do belive that conversations about Aeronautics (ie. traveling through air) are apropriate in this forum. The National AERONAUTICS and Space Administration, is a governmental agency that has impacted "Aeronautics" inmensely. Through research and not only Aeronautics but also Astronautics (traveling through space). It is a fact that, for good or for bad or both, that this is a governmental agency that is inmensely affected by politics. In my opinion there has been a general lack of focus, by the agency  in aeronautics and astronautics, as of late. The politics, well there are conservatives and libertarians that think we should not have a governmental agency doing the research and activities to which NASA devotes its time. The reason given is that this should be the endeavor of private industry. And then there are liberals that think we should not be thinking of space and aero and astronautics, when we have so many problems here on earth. I think both are flawed arguments, which can be discussed at length. But clearly It is my humble opinion that this agency is not being managed and funded appropriately, in order to fulfill its potential. And this is a purely political issue. Your opinion may differ and all are entitled to their opinion, however I think the general consensus of the people that used to work for the agency, and people who are actively working right now, is that the agency has lost its focus. PS live in Florida, visit Cape Canaveral relatively frequently, through the years.

 

Cheers.

[FastEddieB]

Why does anyone need cooling off or feel the need to engage in a rage type conversation?

 

I enjoy spirited debate. That does not equate with rage.

 

Whether its Climate Change or Obama's presidency or The Affordable Care Act or Atheism or the deficit or abortion or whatever, I enjoy hearing what intelligent and passionate people have to say on the issues. 

 

When good arguments are presented, I have been known to change my mind on issues over time. Good debate is the art of persuasion, and it may be the exception, but it does occur.

 

When it turns consistently polarized or angry or rude (or all of the above), I know when its time to leave a thread - or a forum. For instance, the "Hot Section" on the COPA site got so one-sided and mean I got tired of it and no longer visit there. 

 

Anyway, I think the analogy is going to a party and being told certain topics are off limits. No thanks. But like at a party, if the conversation goes in a direction you don't like, you can always leave that conversation - without leaving the party.

 

Anyway, just offering one possible solution to a problem that crops up with some regularity - both here and on the SportPilotTalk forum.

[ralarcon]

The problem with NASA is funding.  It's the result of differing opinions on size of government, tax policy, and national priorities.  It's why we have elections.  The problem started in January 1981 and is not an accident.

 And , this is why there is a de emphasis in aeronautics and astronautics. I think the defunding of the "Constellation" project is one of the worse mistakes ever, in the history of our national space program. Watch the Chinese, they are comming, and we will be caught asleep at the wheel.

 

Cheers.

[Andy]

Totally agree with this.  Ares I was having significant problems (mainly with vibration levels); while Mike Griffin was saying they could be solved, I wasn't hearing much that gave me confidence.  I wasn't a huge fan of the "two rocket" concept anyway (having grown up with a single vehicle performing lunar orbit rendezvous); and Ares V still had a mission and was needed.  We were all shocked when the entire program was thrown away.  (Not to mention retiring shuttle for entirely political reasons.  We had mitigations in place that made me fairly confident we would not lose a crew even if a shuttle was damaged during launch.  Now, the ISS is hanging it out because there is no way to get anything needed up to it that cannot fit though a hatch.)

 

While the commercial space fans hate it (because they want the money to fund their programs), SLS is very much needed to preserve any US heavy lift/deep spaceflight capability in the future.  It may be a rocket without a firm mission, but its expandability leaves you with options.  Space X's heavy lifter might be another option, but I believe it's in our national interest to have a government program. 

 

There was an effort to decouple NASA from the normal budget process to give it a better shot at sustaining a long term vision, but it didn't get anywhere.

[ralarcon]

It is essential to this nation, for political, strategic, military, and commercial reasons that we have a robust space program. Lest we forget "Sputnik". Look up and we have a not so friendly nation, looking down at us , from space , or the moon.  It would be a scientific, military and political disaster. We would loose the high ground. Which in my opinion we are stedfastly doing now. NASA is the key to preventing that scenario.

 

Cheers

[Andy]

True.  The mission of the military is to protect the country.  NASA's mission is to advance it..and take the rest of humanity along with it when it can.

[ralarcon]

The military has not stopped its missions or stopped launching satellites.

Both China and Japan have their own serious economic problems. (Not the least of which is the number of US treasuries that China owns. They are tied very strongly to the success of our economy, although it is not a large percentage of our total debt - Japan owns about as much.)

 

I'm specifically talking about a base on the moon. Yes every country you mentioned has had economic problems , but with desire and strategic planing it can be achieved. I do not think we are going to war with China. However, I did visit China reciently ,and the mentality ,generally, is one of national pride and achievement, and yes supersiding the acomplishments here in the US. It is my opinion that we should not underestimate any nation, but especially not the Chinese. The military space program , has always lagged behind NASA's, except for now. Our manned space travel now and for the foreseeable future, is going to consist of brief tourist jaunts into suborbital space, perhaps low orbit private commercial transport to the space station and hitchiking on the Soyuz space capsule. That is terribly disapointing to me.

 

Cheers

[FredG]

One approach is to have a "hot" section or a political section.  Better than the current approach.  

 

But, I gotta tell you, I really don't need to read about Vladimir Putin, Muslims, Obama, Obamacare, gun control, or other hot button issues on CT FLIER.  Its not that these topics don't interest me. It's not that I don't appreciate spirited debate on the social and political issues of our times.  It's that they are out of place on this forum and they cause alienation among many forum users.  

 

There are tens of thousands of sites on the internet where comments on all kinds of political issues are welcome.  Why do they have to appear here, the one site dedicated to FD CT aircraft?

[Tom Baker]

Maybe I'm just slow and don't understand things to well. I just counted and there are 29 categories on this forum in which you can post, plus 6 more for dealers and distributors. We have places for light sport aircraft, sport pilot, maintenance, instruction, buy and sell, avionic, and a whole bunch more. Unless I'm mistaken this category is "Random Thoughts", and it was the perfect place to place this thread.

While I agree this is not the place for most political grumblings, there are somtimes things that are relevant to flying that have political ties.

[Tom Baker]

The problem comes when someone makes disparaging comments about our President while someone else thinks he is the greatest president ever.  Or someone says Obamacare sucks while someone else thinks it's one of the greatest achievements of this country in 50 years.  These type issues are the "hot button" issues that many of us are passionate about.  Is this a place you want to have these discussions?  Or, if I were to make disparaging comments about Southern Baptist, I would guess some people here might get upset.

By exposing that you have a "hot button" to be pushed, human nature shows that there will always be someone who is going to push it just for the reaction. This goes back to what I said earlier, just let it slide and do nothing and it will pass. I'm not saying everything should be handled this way, but it will work for most.

[ralarcon]

You just don't get it.  That's OK, this place is too "Republican" for me.

LOL, Moving on ?

 

Cheers

[Tom Baker]

You just don't get it.  That's OK, this place is too "Republican" for me.

 

Actually I do get it. If it doesn't go along with what you believe you think it shouldn't be posted here.

[ralarcon]

NASA is doing Muslim outreach and Global Warming studies due to defunding?  Laughing.

 

Lip service and "photographs" from existing satellites does not cost that much.

 

Cheers

[Tom Baker]

You can post anything your want.  It's just not conducive to a cordial atmosphere to discuss flying, unless you just want like minded people here.

 

Like minded people, yea that's it. People who like airplanes. I think most people here are open to discussion, I know I am. There seems to be a few who don't want discussion on certain topics if it doesn't go along with what they believe. I have never ask for a topic to be closed, or run away when I didn't like what was being talked about.

[FredG]

My question - if I explain why one religion is bad and another is good, but I do it in "Random Thoughts", is that OK?  Are my views on John Boehner, Harry Reid, gun control, abortion, gay marriage and marijuana legalization all OK in "Random Thoughts"? 

 

If we are here because this is CT FLIER, then I don't see why overt political commentary (unrelated to flying) is useful. We see, clearly, that it divides people and disrupts the shared goal of furthering our common interest in flying.

 

When I go to Vans Airforce and I read the RV12 pages, I don't read about Muslims and Obamacare.  And I think that site is better-off because of it.

[ralarcon]

My question - if I explain why one religion is bad and another is good, but I do it in "Random Thoughts", is that OK?  Are my views on John Boehner, Harry Reid, gun control, abortion, gay marriage and marijuana legalization all OK in "Random Thoughts"? 

 

If we are here because this is CT FLIER, then I don't see why overt political commentary (unrelated to flying) is useful. We see, clearly, that it divides people and disrupts the shared goal of furthering our common interest in flying.

 

When I go to Vans Airforce and I read the RV12 pages, I don't read about Muslims and Obamacare.  And I think that site is better-off because of it.

I thought we were discussing, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. There is plenty of blame to be adjudicated to both political parties, for not focusing enough on its core purpose. Politics are an integral part of its management, however, that does not necessarily mean partisan politics. Local politics vs. national politics, funding of pet projects as opposed to aeronautics and/or astronautics, like the original post on the useless tower that costs billions to build, funded by, you guessed it NASA.

 

Cheers

[FastEddieB]

My take right now...

 

1) We are guests at a forum most of us did nothing to initiate and do nothing to maintain or moderate.

 

2) As guests, we are somewhat dependent on the people running the forum to set policy.

 

3) It's apparent that the people running the forum do not wish to start a sub forum for hot topics.

 

4) So, as much as I'd like to I cannot engage anyone here on anything remotely political or controversial.

 

So...

 

5) If anyone wants to discuss politics or religion or whatever, go over to PilotsOfAmerica.com and elect to see/participate in the Spin Zone. Many here are already there, some under different "handles" but I'm FastEddieB over there, and if you want to know my positions on gun rights or Obamacare or religion or abortion or nearly anything else, you can find them there. And we can still be friends.

 

Personally, I find it a better site for the freedom it allows it's members, but, again, it's not up to me.

[Roger Lee]

" And we can still be friends."

 

So why do you use the ignore feature?   

[CT4ME]

I agree... but don't think you aren't moderated there... there are several moderators who think nothing of clipping posts, or topics.  Case in point, early yesterday there was a rip-roaring thread about our friend Mr. Bernath, and his latest exploits.  Some folks had discovered the stolen valor stuff.  In a few hours there were several pages of posts, and it all disappeared suddenly last night... not a word was said.

 

The spin zone is a relatively open, unmoderated, space, however.