Failed ignition modules

[Roger Lee]

Yes, use a small flat tip screwdriver and look for the side of the connector with the tab. Lift the tab and they pop right open.

For the individual pins in each connector I use a dental pick to push the inside tab down while pulling on the wire out the back. They should slide right out if you depress the tab. Until you have done this a time or two it make take a few minutes to remove the wire. Do not get aggressive and damage the internal tab or you may be buying a new connector. Look in the end with a flashlight. You will see the pin and the tab right under it.

[Anticept]

The soft start system starts at 4 degrees after TDC and then after about 7 seconds (rough running) or so it should switch to 26 degrees BTDC.

 

The old modules started at 3 degrees BTDC.

For full benefit from the soft start modules you would also have to change the flywheel.

it should be noted that the softstart modules only change the amount of time it takes before the timing switches (based on seconds instead of RPM), but it is the flywheel that determines the actual degrees of the timing,

 

 

I have the soft start modules, and my engine on start has always been rough. I just jockey the throttle between about 1800 to 2500 rpm until I can find a semi-smooth point until oil is over 120 F. Once I do the run up everything smooths out. I think my engine is slightly too rich on start and cold idle, but runs fine once warm.

 

Dan,

That sounds like mine now.

Again, new behavior with the new modules.

As an add'l data point, switching to each mag individually maybe drops the rpm evenly by about 100 rpm, with no change in smoothness.

 

I was told by Eric that the softstart modules require a 12 volt supply from aircraft power, otherwise they never change timing. Apparently it is very common that people and manufacturers miss that part. At least, I think he was talking about the softstart modules...

[FastEddieB]

 

 

 

 

I was told by Eric that the softstart modules require a 12 volt supply from aircraft power, otherwise they never change timing.

 

 

What they actually need is a "trigger" signal that shows when the starter is engaged.

 

Two wires, one from each connector, go to the starter solenoid.

 

If I have not shown it already, the two wires in my Sky Arrow:

 

[Anticept]

What they actually need is a "trigger" signal that shows when the starter is engaged.

 

Two wires, one from each connector, go to the starter solenoid.

 

If I have not shown it already, the two wires in my Sky Arrow:

 

Got ya. He didn't go into much detail, he just mentioned it because someone in class asked about it.

[Dan Kent]

it should be noted that the softstart modules only change the amount of time it takes before the timing switches (based on seconds instead of RPM), but it is the flywheel that determines the actual degrees of the timing,

I was told by Eric that the softstart modules require a 12 volt supply from aircraft power, otherwise they never change timing. Apparently it is very common that people and manufacturers miss that part. At least, I think he was talking about the softstart modules...

My plane came with the modules, but were not wired for softstart. Lockwood did the wiring to activate the softstart, so I'm assuming it was done properly. Plane has always started easier cold than warm.

[Roger Lee]

The modules come with all wires, but two. One for each module. You put those two in and run them down to the starting solenoid. This is where the signal (aka12V) supply comes from to initiate the soft start feature. You are correct about the fly wheel and the timing change over the old fly wheel. You can use just the soft start modules by themselves  without the new fly wheel and they will make a difference, but you will not get the full benefit without the new fly wheel. The new fly wheel cost around $750.

The two wires took about 20 min. to make and hook up. Piece of cake.

[MarcF]

Hello,

 

Unfortunately, I am frighten that I have a problem with my ignition modules since I came back from Marrocco. It is possible that after a flight and parking on the apron in the south of the country (sometimes 40°C outside air temperature), temperature under teh cover exceeds 65°C when the engine is still hot..

I understand that I have to change them because the ignition is more and more difficult even with a full charged battery. Once the engine started, it works perfectly well and no problem to retart it immediately.

The question is: to avoid to burn a new couple of modules, am i supposed to create a window (air vent) through the engine cover ?

Do you have suggestion to design such an air vent ?

Friendly

Marc

[Runtoeat]

Marc, there's been quite a lot of discussion in the forum regarding improvement of cowl air flow. It seems that the new modules handle higher ambient heat but others here might answer this.

 

Dan Kent. My CTSW was originally from the North Western U.S. with associated colder temps than here in Michigan. I find that if I position my enrichment (choke) lever to about a "3/4" position this provides stumble free starts during moderate or cold weather. I've put a dab of paint on the tunnel next to the lever to mark where to position the lever for this "sweet spot". Positioning my lever @ full-to-stop is "too rich" and my engine runs rough and will stall if the lever is left there. I can adjust my enrichment @ the carbs but this method seems to work OK.

[Roger Lee]

Marc,

 

Before you go though all kinds of trouble and money to possibly fix something that doesn't need fixing put a temperature strip on top of the modules and while you're at it put one on the reg/rec.

 

The temp that kills ignition modules and the reg/rec is anything over 170F. I have never seen anything over 145F-150F on a CT. If your temps are at 150F or lower then you just had a bad set of modules. 

I live in Tucson, AZ and my temps here are like yours and I have 8 CT's here with no module temp issues.

[MarcF]

Thanks,

I will do it. Nevertheless, the problem may have occur during my last trip in the desert of south Marroco while, in France where I am based, I have no chance to reach those temp (except if the weather becomes drastically warmer in the future...).

I am convinced that the modules are guilty as when I make the test with another pair, the engine starts immediately ...

Will stick a temp strip anyway ... hoping that if it turns hot, it will not be too late ...

[Dan Kent]

Dan Kent. My CTSW was originally from the North Western U.S. with associated colder temps than here in Michigan. I find that if I position my enrichment (choke) lever to about a "3/4" position this provides stumble free starts during moderate or cold weather. I've put a dab of paint on the tunnel next to the lever to mark where to position the lever for this "sweet spot". Positioning my lever @ full-to-stop is "too rich" and my engine runs rough and will stall if the lever is left there. I can adjust my enrichment @ the carbs but this method seems to work OK.

Thanks Dick. I use the choke to start, but once it's running at normal rpm I slowly back it down to off even when it is cold here (which is still relatively warm compared to Michigan). I think my choke is spring loaded as I need to continually hold it, but I'll give it a pull when the engine is rough during warmup.

[ZZ Top]

Is anyone receiving any modules yet? Ordered mine two months ago. Called Leading Edge, they said they are not even manufacturing any yet. Was told maybe they will have some in December. What really is happening? Why is Rotax not doing anything about this situation? Would think they are using them on the new engines they are producing. If they ordered, let's say a two or three hundred batch at a time, one would think they might help out the owners of these great engines.

[S3flyer]

I got mine a week ago from CPS after a 3 month delay. They received a small batch that was probably reserved for back orders but you might give them a call.

[Roger Lee]

I had a talk with Rotax yesterday. Talked about this and a couple other items. (A few minor new things coming next year) They haven't seen any indication of increased ignition module failures.

 

Do you know why?

 Because no one is filling out the CSIR and sending it in and the dealers haven't upped their order quantities. This isn't the distributor's  job. It must come from the customer. They are checking right now to see if US distributor orders have been increased, but off the top of their head they didn't think so. Everyone is complaining on the forums which they don't monitor and not filing any Customer Service Reports.  

You can complain that it is the distributor's fault, but that isn't the system in place.

 

This is the only way Rotax gets any feedback. Without these reports Rotax thinks there are no issues. So the problem isn't with Rotax or the distributor, but with the owners. If you haven't filled out a report and regardless if you have already replaced them please fill out a CSIR from the Rotax Flying and Safety Club website and send it in. It's the only way to fix the problem.

 

 

p.s.

The military changes these out every 750 hrs. in their drones. 

[2FlyAgain]

I ordered mine in mid-August from Lockwood.  At that time Lockwood knew immediately that they didn't have any and that neither of the other US suppliers did either.  I received them two months later (mid-October).  When they came in, I received three different messages almost simultaneously between phones and email asking me to call Lockwood ASAP to let them know if I still needed them.  Because Lockwood had others waiting...

 

From the postings here, I did not realize that the distributors had not increased their orders from Rotax.  I had the impression that the distributors must have been begging Rotax for more modules.  Clearly, Lockwood knew that there was a need that wasn't being filled.  

 

The modules have been installed.  Then the plane had to go in for its annual condition inspection at the end of the month, so I have only flown an hour or so on the new modules.  

 

I just spent 20 minutes filling out a CSIR form.  Whether or not this will this help others get their ignition modules faster remains to be seen.  If the military is changing these out every 750 hours on their drones, then more Rotax powered LSA owners are going to being needing them soon...

 

Roger, thanks again for the ice bad trick.  I seriously wonder how long it would have taken to get my starting problem properly diagnosed without that information.

[FastEddieB]

They haven't seen any indication of increased ignition module failures.

 

Do you know why?

Because no one is filling out the CSIR and sending it in and the dealers haven't upped their order quantities. This isn't the distributor's job. It must come from the customer...

 

I will probably go ahead and report my problem

 

But...

 

It reminds me of when iPhone users were having antenna issues and Steve Jobs remarked, "You're holding it wrong!"

 

He was lambasted for that, and rightfully so - blaming your end users for problems with your product is kinda universally seen as a bad idea.

 

Similarly, it's now our fault we can't get modules? All we need is the head of ROTAX to say, "They're reporting it wrong!"

 

Yes, we should all probably dutifully report bad modules when we have them.

 

But "blaming the victim" is not the right tack for ROTAX to take on this one.

[Roger Lee]

The military does not impact us. Their orders are completely different. I just thought it was an interesting note.

 

We as owners have to fill out these CSIR or Rotax will never know what's going on. The distributors don't report anything. They just want to sell parts. It's their living.

[FastEddieB]

We as owners have to fill out these CSIR or Rotax will never know what's going on. The distributors don't report anything. They just want to sell parts. It's their living.

Just curious...

 

...how is it that Honda and Ford and BMW and KTM and almost anyone you could name have systems in place that do not depend on the end user for reporting parts failures?

[S3flyer]

BRP is an SAP (www.sap.com) shop and has been for over 10 years. SAP is the software backbone of the enterprise and includes a very robust Supply Chain management component. Coupled with inventory management software, manufacturers and vendors can note anomalies in supplies such as stock depleted faster than normal. Triggers are set to alert the appropriate folks that people are buy more of product X so they might want to stock up. It does tell the manufacturer WHY they need inventory but it does show the need. This is not rocket science and has been around for at least 20 years.

 

BRP/Rotax have something broken in their supply chain or are simply ignoring data.

 

Roger -- PM me your contact and I would be happy to help them work out their issues.

[Roger Lee]

This is run by Rotax in Austria. They do as they want and dictate how things will work in the US. They control the 22 master distributors that control the small Service Centers (a.k.a. small distributors like Lockwood, CPS and Leading Edge). From what I have seen over the years the small distributors don't keep certain things on hand in quantity. Ignition modules are an example where they may keep 1-3 sets of them. If there wasn't a run on them that was sufficient. The small distributors don't always know either unless we all took our planes to them for maint.  All the distributor sees is the order from an outside source.

 

Bottom line is to fill out the CSIR because that is the ONLY thing Rotax will ever see.

[WmInce]

This is run by Rotax in Austria. They do as they want and dictate how things will work in the US. They control the 22 master distributors that control the small Service Centers (a.k.a. small distributors like Lockwood, CPS and Leading Edge). From what I have seen over the years the small distributors don't keep certain things on hand in quantity. Ignition modules are an example where they may keep 1-3 sets of them. If there wasn't a run on them that was sufficient. The small distributors don't always know either unless we all took our planes to them for maint. All the distributor sees is the order from an outside source.

 

Bottom line is to fill out the CSIR because that is the ONLY thing Rotax will ever see.

Not to shoot the messenger, but this is kind of depressing.

At a minimum, it has me thinking about alternatives for my next airplane purchase.

That withstanding, the 912 is a great little power plant, but it is this type of manufacture support that is lacking. With the technical improvements in inventory management available now, which has been mentioned previously, Rotax should have a better handle on it.

[Anticept]

Fill out CSIR forms.

 

It's not fair that rotax is keeping such a backorder on parts. But, because of the language barrier, they might not even know that there is an urgent need for parts, often the distributors just place an order and leave it at that. Business is a two way street, and sometimes, as customers, we need to make sure they hear about problems we are having so they can work on fixing it. It's not fair to a business to not hear feedback from customers, so please take the time to fill out CSIR forms so they can hear from us.

 

CSIR forms are some of the best ways to make sure Rotax hears about issues straight from the horse's mouth too. It's a direct way for you to voice how you feel about what they are doing. When we pass along information verbally, things get lost and mixed up. But the written word is worth gold, because it means a customer has taken time to write how they feel about an issue (and by nature, means it's serious), and there is very little mix up because the form goes straight to Rotax.

[Jim Meade]

How does the average FD owner find out about CSIR? The FD USA web site sends one with Rotax questions to the iRMT page of RFSC. There is no link from there to the CSIR.

 

The average Rotax owner is going to go to the aircraft dealer for support. FD does not help, as shown above. It is not reasonable to assume that the average owner is a Rotax Owner member. Many don't even know about it. It is not reasonable to imagine that the average owner knows anything about RFSC.

 

Even if an owner does know about these two obscure sites and finds this form, look at the online forms as linked by Roger. There is no indication that the form goes to anyone other than the site they are on. Nothing that says they go to or are even known about by Rotax.

 

We already have been told that Rotax deliberately maintains a low profile in the U.S. due to tort concerns. We already know that links through distributors feed back through obscure organizations like RFSC and maybe Rotax Owners. We've been told that these organizations have an arm's distance relationship with Rotax. That is, there is no real assurance that anything we tell either of these organizations will automatically get to Rotax. If we thought it would, we would assume that these organizations would be telling Rotax already on our behalf in a proactive manner.

 

Rotax is sadly mistaken if it thinks that this labyrinthian feedback mechanism is the way to satisfy and support customers in the American culture. We expect dealers and companies to be proactive about resolving supply chain glitches.

 

The obscure CSIR as a substitute for proactive, caring dealer support is a failed strategy.

 

Explaining why Rotax does things as they do is interesting and useful. We know it is an explanation and not an excuse or apology for inadequate support. Blaming the victim is not the way to resolve discrepancies in support.

[Anticept]

The problem is that Rotax does not maintain a presence in the Americas. Parts are imported by independent companies. RFSC is an independent safety organization. The one, and the ONLY official center of Rotax is in Austria. They do provide support through RFSC, but that's the extent of it. It's RFSC's responsibility to act as a liaison to Rotax, as well as disseminate safety information. Also, as part of the import agreements, it is the distributors who are supposed to provide direct technical support and warranty work for the field, and Rotax reimburses. Please note: this isn't against what Roger said about Rotax doing what it wants, rather that's how Rotax controls the network, by selecting who they certify. Unfortunately, it is not a robust system and does fall on its face a lot.

 

Also, CSIRs are something that Rotax iRMTs know about. This is something that is brought up during the very first service training classes. It's not unique to rotax either, every manufacturer has a reporting system in place, and even the FAA maintains a Service Difficulty Reporting database, and a Aviation Maintenance Alerts database, that are public for use. You'll find it's quite difficult to get direct manufacturer support with other engine manufacturers too unless you are a mechanic, as they just don't make enough money to set up a large elaborate support network. In fact, often if I have an issue with a lycoming or a continental, I need to contact one of the distributors or overhaul facilities for the engines, as it is very difficult to get direct manufacturer assistance. They've provided all of this training to all kinds of facilities everywhere, and they are who we deal with.

 

In addition, aviation cannot be compared to other industries due to the high cost and low volume of movement, so something must give. Airframe manufacturers are generally a little better off, so they can provide a bit more support.

 

As a side note, even in the car industry, generally the manufacturers don't like to provide direct support to the owner of vehicles (I said they don't like to, that doesn't mean that they won't). They prefer to communicate with certified mechanics and dealerships, as they are better trained to investigate and diagnose problems with vehicles before needing to consult the manufacturer.

 

That's the way the service industry works. I say this bluntly, not to insult anyone, but to make sure everyone understands that's how it works. If you did it any other way, there would be massive overhead and a lot of bureaucracy involved.

 

Also, Jim, Roger and I are not your adversary. The fact that we are posting information on this forum, providing you with information, and giving you links and information to many of the same resources that we have should demonstrate that we CARE about our customers and peers. I'm trying to help you understand how you can provide feedback to the manufacturer.

 

In summary: yes, Rotax and Flight Design both need to get a better handle on their support network (Dave is extremely helpful, but there is only so much he can do). A lot of this is meant to be coordinated with your local mechanic though. We're in the same boat as you though, sometimes the manufacturer support falls short, and often we get the flak for it. We have to make lemonade with the lemons we are given, as we have little control over the process.

 

However, it should also be the customer's and the mechanic's responsibility to provide feedback to manufacturers. The Americas are unique in the fact that we provide so little feedback, yet are extremely demanding, whereas in many other parts of the world, it's considered a two way street for customers and businesses to work together in harmony, as it should be.

 

Still, I DO agree, parts shortages are bullshit, and so are missed delivery schedules and lack of communication when those deadlines are missed. It's not something that we should have to send complaints in about. But, it's the avenue we have as individuals, so let's do it!

[chanik]

I filled a CSIR form out right away a month ago when my modules failed. I never heard a thing back. So, yes, they do suck for consumer responsiveness..