Value of a 2010 CTLS?

[Tom Baker]

The two Toms at Airtime Aviation have bought and sold more CT's than anyone else in the country. They would probably be the best resource for determining the values both retail and wholesale on a CT.

[Ed Cesnalis]

...  I recall taking off and as I climbed I kept having to push the nose down because I was getting a stall warning.  As I recall I leveled the plane, engaged the autopilot and set the rate of climb to 500, then 400, then 300, then 200 before the stall warning stopped complaining.  So what altitude was I at?  I don't know for sure.

 

Scott,

 

Assuming your stall warning works correctly, prior to leveling off and engaging the AP you were getting a stall warning because of using a high AOA, you must have been slow.  The winds in the western desserts are unpredictable and the runways are long so it might be a better idea to accelerate in ground effect and then climb at Vy or better for stall safety margin.

 

When I fly to the beach and take off at sea level, all I see is sky, my pitch attitude seems extreme but I'm on speed. When I take off at Mammoth at 7,128' using the same speed my pitch attitude is very flat, not at all similar.  The stall warning doesn't mean you lack performance it only means that your current AOA is high and approaching critical.  You have performance left but you have elected to operate near the limit, lower the nose, accelerate and climb at a slower rate.

 

Climbing at 500fpm when over gross and at high DA isn't a given and you might need to hand fly that climb because your auto pilot is dumb and is following your instruction to pitch for 500fpm and is leaving speed up to you.  At altitude you need to use a wide open throttle on climb, cruise-climb and even cruise.  At 7,500' you need WOT just to get 75% cruise power.  If you throttled back for a cruise-climb setting you would have been working against your AP setting instead of accommodating. it.

 

Unless there is terrain to clear out in the wide open west a good strategy for cruise-climbing is to use reflex flap setting and a minimal climb rate.  You will be over 100kts true and able to climb to ~14,000+.

[FastEddieB]

Scott,

 

Assuming your stall warning works correctly, prior to leveling off and engaging the AP you were getting a stall warning because of using a high AOA, you must have been slow.

 

 

Nice catch! If he was well below Vy and well on the backside of the power curve, no wonder he couldn't climb!

 

In that situation one MUST lower the nose and accelerate to Vy (or Vx as appropriate) and accept that momentary leveling off for the benefits it must bring in the future.

 

And I agree that this is NOT a situation where I would choose the autopilot, unless it was advanced enough to do a set IAS climb.

[S3flyer]

 

 

And I agree that this is NOT a situation where I would choose the autopilot, unless it was advanced enough to do a set IAS climb.

Interesting.  I just assumed all the current experimental/LSA autopilots had similar functionality.  My Dynon AP operated by a D100 (there are much more gizmo settings when the same AP is operated by Skyview) has an FPM setting and a minimum IAS setting.  This means the AP will increase the pitch until you achieve the desired climb rate.  It will continue to hold this as long as you are at or above the minimum IAS.  The AP will disengage when you drop below the minimum IAS.  I set my minimum IAS at the maximum of Vx and Vy.

[FastEddieB]

As a data point, my 2003 Cirrus w/STEC autopilot could do a set rate climb, but not a constant airspeed climb. Set the rate too high and it could fly you right into a stall.

 

Newer ones do let you set an airspeed, and have some "envelope protection" were you to set too high a rate in rate mode.

[Ed Cesnalis]

Interesting.  I just assumed all the current experimental/LSA autopilots had similar functionality.  My Dynon AP operated by a D100 (there are much more gizmo settings when the same AP is operated by Skyview) has an FPM setting and a minimum IAS setting.  This means the AP will increase the pitch until you achieve the desired climb rate.  It will continue to hold this as long as you are at or above the minimum IAS.  The AP will disengage when you drop below the minimum IAS.  I set my minimum IAS at the maximum of Vx and Vy.

 

That just sounds like Scott's AP's min IAS and his stall warning are out of sync.

[Scott Lee]

That just sounds like Scott's AP's min IAS and his stall warning are out of sync.

I think you are right as coming over the mountains I had to hand fly because the a/p would fly the plane into a stall. Today the plane is in for its annual and I had the mechanic changing the configure to match the spreadsheet elsewhere on this forum because in altitude/heading hold mode the plane "hunts", i.e. Rocks the wings left and right. GPS mode is rock solid. The a/p is a digiflight.

[FastEddieB]

Getting back to the topic,  has anyone sold a plane with damage history?  What was the impact on the price of the plane?  Plus how much does a CT depreciate a year?  Cars are easy to value, the data set is enormous.

 

 

I put a deposit down on a 2003 Cirrus SR22 demo with about 150 hours on it. It went back to the factory for delivery prep. I got a call that someone had taxied it into a hole and had a prop strike. That was the bad news.

 

The good news was they were putting on a new prop and a new, zero-time Continental IO-550.

 

I was warned that the logbook entry would forever be seen as "accident damage", but getting a brand new engine and prop seemed a good deal and I figured I'd worry about depreciation later.

 

Long story short, when I sold the plane in 2007, I used a broker and it ended up selling for about what other 2003's with similar hours were going for - I don't think the engine/prop "accident history" affected it a whole lot, if at all.

 

That said, gear damage may be viewed differently, but as Andy said, its very hard to know for sure what kind of a hit you'll take, if any. 

[gbigs]

I think you are right as coming over the mountains I had to hand fly because the a/p would fly the plane into a stall. Today the plane is in for its annual and I had the mechanic changing the configure to match the spreadsheet elsewhere on this forum because in altitude/heading hold mode the plane "hunts", i.e. Rocks the wings left and right. GPS mode is rock solid. The a/p is a digiflight.

 

The Autopilot does not enforce “agreement” between the IAS and ALT bugs. For example, it is possible to set the ALT bug below your current altitude, but set IAS to a target which results in a climb. In this case, the aircraft will climb at the commanded IAS indefinitely (until it reaches the Autopilot’s programmed speed limits as it hits the aircraft’s service ceiling) because it will never approach the ALT bug.

 

You should be able to use IAS climb (never VS to climb) and not stall because you are asking for a IAS speed not a VS speed (configured in Setup).  If the plane cannot maintain the IAS speed climbing it will nose down until it does achieve the IAS speed which may simply result in a slower climb rate (or possible descent and level off if there is not enough power to climb)...

[Tom Baker]

The Autopilot does not enforce “agreement” between the IAS and ALT bugs. For example, it is possible to set the ALT bug below your current altitude, but set IAS to a target which results in a climb. In this case, the aircraft will climb at the commanded IAS indefinitely (until it reaches the Autopilot’s programmed speed limits as it hits the aircraft’s service ceiling) because it will never approach the ALT bug.

 

You should be able to use IAS climb (never VS to climb) and not stall because you are asking for a IAS speed not a VS speed (configured in Setup).  If the plane cannot maintain the IAS speed climbing it will nose down until it does achieve the IAS speed which may simply result in a slower climb rate (or possible descent and level off if there is not enough power to climb)...

 

He does not have the same autopilot as you.

[gbigs]

He does not have the same autopilot as you.

 

He said he had a CT...doesn't he have Skyview?

[Ed Cesnalis]

He said he had a CT...doesn't he have Skyview?

 

 

The a/p is a digiflight.

 

I have Blue Mountain Avionics (deceased), others have TruTrak.

[Doug G.]

He said he had a CT...doesn't he have Skyview?

Some CTs (even CTLSs) have non-Skyview Dynon displays, and although my 2010 CTLS has Skyview I have a Trutrak autopilot.

We don't all have 796s either.

[gbigs]

I think his CT is gonna be a hard sell....not only damage history but also obscure Avionics....he wanted a guess as to how to sell and price, maybe he should list the specs of the plane first so we can all see what he has...

[Scott Lee]

I think his CT is gonna be a hard sell... obscure Avionics....he wanted a guess as to how to sell and price, maybe he should list the specs of the plane first so we can all see what he has...

Hamburger I think you skim the posts and not really read them. Obscure avionics? Digiflight is the model of TruTrak autopilot and used in all the 2010 CTLS that I know. Earlier I stated I upgraded from a 696 to a 796 and added a Garmin GDL 39-3D. These are obviously not obscure.

 

But I don't have to sell or trade if the deal is too bad. You are making the same choice with your plane. I personally wouldn't want to pay the carrying cost,but that comes from my experience holding on for a year on a home price that was unrealistic. So I paid to hold the property and got the same price offered right after going on the market.

 

My question for you: did the cirrus dealer offer to trade in your CT and if so how much did they offer? That would be a valuable data point. Send it in a message if you don't want to say it in public.

[gbigs]

Hamburger I think you skim the posts and not really read them. Obscure avionics? Digiflight is the model of TruTrak autopilot and used in all the 2010 CTLS that I know. Earlier I stated I upgraded from a 696 to a 796 and added a Garmin GDL 39-3D. These are obviously not obscure.

 

I fear the beating I might take on price. But I don't have to sell or trade if the deal is too bad. You are making the same choice with your plane. I personally wouldn't want to pay the carrying cost,but that comes from my experience holding on for a year on a home price that was unrealistic. So I paid to hold the property and got the same price offered right after going on the market.

 

My question for you: did the cirrus dealer offer to trade in your CT and if so how much did they offer? That would be a valuable data point. Send it in a message if you don't want to say it in public.

 

If your autopilot is current then the information I posted should help.  You should be able to fly IAS ascent mode and the AP will not stall the plane.  Not making a comment on your gear just offering a little info on a mode of flying.

 

I bought from the factory direct, not a broker.  Cirrus reps are CFIs and have lease-back planes, or corporate supplied planes to fly customers and give them a hands-on demo ride and explain the product up close.  Cirrus does have a stock of older Cirrus planes (not sure if they took those in trade) but they don't buy/sell non-Cirrus aircraft.

 

None of us on this board can tell you what your plane is worth...the best and really only way to do that is to either guess yourself based on what you see on Controller.com and other aviation sites where CTs are listed....or get a broker who offers you the following service:  market/value assessment, ferry service, advertising/marketing, networking for a fee (standard is 6%).

 

Lone Mountain is one such independent aircraft broker at a corporate level....there are private guys out there too.

[Cluemeister]

It certainly wouldn't hurt to get  an idea of the market from the sources referenced here in this thread.

[Tom Baker]

He said he had a CT...doesn't he have Skyview?

 

I believe he does have the Skyviews, but he also said he has the TruTrak Digiflight autopilot. This is the most common autopilot installed in the existing CT fleet. I even have a CTLSi that I work on that has Skyviews with a TruTrak autopilot.

[Scott Lee]

I have watched the various web sites, I think I will follow up with some of the companies, but in general want to see the plane which isn't practical given the distance.

 

I wasn't looking for a specific amount, the 6% burger referenced is very helpful.

 

I don't remember who posted the spreadsheet with various a/p settings, but I gave my mechanic that info and asked him to program it with the final tested settings. I'll see if that helps when I retrieve my plane.

[SportFlyer1]

I bought a 2010 CTLS last Nov from the 2 Toms. It was a pleasant experience in the main, although I found them to be a little vague and unstructured. The plane was brokered by them from the original owner. Their terms to him were something like 8-10% of the purchase price or $5,000 whichever was greater. The plane had a damage history of a runway excursion that broke one of the main gear and caused a prop strike, as well as some fuselage dings. The interior was quite bad, about a 4, and needed lots of leather cleaning by me. The avionics were the standard D100/120 w/ with a 696 and a/p. We flew it and the engine ran smooth and the a/p was fine. It had about 636 hours on it and needed some TLC. I was able to knock about $10,000 off the asking price for the damage and condition. It has a recent annual and hose replacement as pluses, but I will have to repack the chute soon myself. In the end nobody was happy with the deal, so I guess we did right.

 

Tom jr. was nice and easy to deal with and surprisingly helpful in navigating the registration forms and Garmin/Sirius XM updates. They provided a safety pilot for the ferry flight at $300 a day plus expenses and that turned out to be money well spent. Wilson Miller (Cardinal pilot on YouTube) is deeply familiar with CT's and went through all the menus with me on all the equipment as we traveled to Arizona. He provided any flying backup I needed and that turned out to be useful as we hit some stiff crosswinds on a few landings. He also familiarized me with flight following advantages and he liked to fly high, anywhere from 7,000 to 10,000.

 

Good luck with your plane, I think it will sell well in spite of the damage if the plane is clean, runs well and is caught up on its maintenance.

[Scott Lee]

Sportflyer how much did you spend?

[Tom Baker]

Scott, without seeing the airplane or logs, I would expect retail on your plane to be in the 110,000 to 115,000 if it is a Skyview equipped. I would expect wholesale to be about 10% less. You need to remember that if trading it in they need to be able to make some money on it. In Illinois if the trade in allowance is more than $7,000 less than you think you can sell the airplane for you would be better off selling than trading, if you don't mind the hassle.

[Scott Lee]

Scott, without seeing the airplane or logs, I would expect retail on your plane to be in the 110,000 to 115,000 if it is a Skyview equipped. I would expect wholesale to be about 10% less. You need to remember that if trading it in they need to be able to make some money on it. In Illinois if the trade in allowance is more than $7,000 less than you think you can sell the airplane for you would be better off selling than trading, if you don't mind the hassle.

 

Probably a reasonable guess.  I understand that dealers have to buy wholesale and sell retail so they make money on both ends of the deal, or they won't be in business for long.  As mentioned before if I do a trade it will be partially because of he sales tax swing and partially because I won't carry two planes.

[Adam]

Scott,  I am a Tecnam fan myself, the fit and finish makes their LSA's look very nice indeed.   I'm getting my new CTLSi next week (finally) after a long wait.  I have owned a CTSW and a CTLS before it.   On the P2008, the one major concern I couldn't overcome was the useful load.  I'm assuming you have done your diligence on this? 

 

You'll never get 2, 200 lb people plus baggage and fuel in a P2008 (as you mentioned you did in your CTLS) as the useful load (not advertised useful load but rather actual useful load on planes being delivered) is ~430 pounds.  I just couldn't get my arms around the math.  The lack of a chute was also a factor (for my wife).  The Tecnam P2008 is hard to fly within the legal limit if you have a passenger, fuel and any baggage.  That very nice interior comes at a price - useful load.

[Scott Lee]

Congratulations on your new plane, she is a beauty.

 

Yes the Tecnam is heaver and less useful load.  This is also a progressively worsening problem for the CT as new versions keep adding weight and the 1320 pound limit isn't changing.  The head of Diamond aircraft has publicly said they aren't interested in LSA because the weight limit is dumb.  (Maybe someone can help me out and find an exact quote.)

 

Sticking with CT's for a moment and using my plane as an example,  My empty weight is 804 pounds. So according to the rules I have 516 pounds of carrying capacity.  If I had two people at 200 lbs each and full fuel at 198 lbs, I would be at 598 without luggage.  A CTLSi adds around 30 pounds to the base weight of the machine.  (The 914 turbo is about the same weight) Put another 50 pounds of luggage in the plane and you are way over weight.

 

Except a CT with floats gets another 110 pounds of capacity according to the rules.  Hmm, so if you are a sea plane carrying around big heavy floats all the time, with much higher resistance pushing the plane on the water to get to rotation speed, much higher wind resistance and uses the same Rotax 100 hp engine without a problem, does the 1320 limit make sense?

 

Tecnam and every LSA manufacturer can't give anything except the LSA rules as their specs.  But what the plane is capable of isn't the same as the LSA rules.  It is no secret that manufacturers pitch the props to keep their planes within the LSA specs, or they will go faster than 120 knots.

 

By the way, I never said anything about 2,200 pounds in my CT.  I think you misread me saying two 200 pound people.  I keep as close as possible to the 1320 simply because it gives me a margin of safety.  I've never had 2,200 pounds in my plane.