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Avoid nosing over - here's the drill


Ed Cesnalis

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This is an illustration of the crosswinds a KTMB, an airport I travel to frequently. Of course he landed twice on the same attempt. However it illustrates, how in these kinds of conditions , you want all three wheels on the runway , as soon as possible, to maintain directional stability. This is not me !

 

 

Cheers

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As an aside, I know Tamiami very well. I got my multi-engine in an Apache there, and later taught ground school at Atlantic Airways, commuting from Opa Locka in my Citabria, weather permitting. More recently, used it to shoot approached with an Instrument student in his Cirrus.

 

No comment on that landing!

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As an aside, I know Tamiami very well. I got my multi-engine in an Apache there, and later taught ground school at Atlantic Airways, commuting from Opa Locka in my Citabria, weather permitting. More recently, used it to shoot approached with an Instrument student in his Cirrus.

 

No comment on that landing!

Yes , that is not me, I will comment, on the landing , worst I have seen . My most Challenging landing at that airport, was rnway. 9 L X wind 23 knots, did not bounce. Came in at -6 Flaps landed much faster than that and the landing stuck, no bounces. Flying a CTLS in and out of KTMB is always challenging.

 

Cheers

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Well, since it's not you...

 

The unwillingness/inability to track the centerline after touchdown was my biggest complaint. On a narrower runway...

Yes I agree, the wind will blow you right off the runway if you are not careful. Luckily the Runways at KTMB are wide , smooth and forgiving, for the most part.

 

Cheers

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The problem is that once you get down to a certain speed the aft stick has no effect, but the speed is still enough to take out the front gear. It takes very little speed in a CT to take the front gear out and fold it back. It will look just like the one in Eddie's post.

When the front gear goes under it becomes an anchor.

 

Ed,

 

If the gear would break off clean you most likely would just slide. The problem with us is it just folds under and digs in and then you flip. You have no choice. It's made for you. That's why holding full aft will make no difference. That will only work for a second at touch, after that you have no control if the front end hits a  big enough bush, tree, rock or hole and you'll still be hold aft upsidedown.

 

" the pilots have a consensus that you can't hold the nose off so enjoy your flip over and fat insurance check. "

(don't reduce your insurance to save a few bucks  ;) )

 

They're right. Look at all the incidents worldwide. Most are like this unless they are the ones that landed in a tree or fell out of the sky in a stall.

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Its not done with aft stick but with a combination of aft stick and power.  Its not perfect but it sure works well on many fields.  I have always had tricycled geared airplanes because of the winds in Mammoth but I have always landed them in fields.  I have used this technique for almost 30 years and I have used it to save my nose wheel.  You may never intentionally land in fields but you need this skill for the time you are forced to or the time your planned field is soft.

 

Does it really sound so un-useful, is that hard to picture the field in front of you has surface hidden in grass, holes you can see and bare spots that you would target?

 

Why you guys would want to argue against the ability to prevent a percentage of the roll overs is beyond me.

 

Imagine, you do a forced landing and immediately beyond touchdown is a series of holes, you would prefer to flip than to elevate for 30 seconds?????????

 

 

 

PS  Fast Eddie is right, full aft and on the ground is lighter and safer than neutral, it could save you too or it could save you once you slow.

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"Its not done with aft stick but with a combination of aft stick and power.  Its not perfect but it sure works well on many fields. "

 

If you have power why would someone land in a crappy field or even in a  marginal one asking to get tagged?

 

As a pilot you should know where you are going to land and the field condition.

 

All Ed's,

You've missed the point, aircraft design and W&B on a CT.

 

"Why you guys would want to argue against the ability to prevent a percentage of the roll overs is beyond me"

 

No one is arguing about aft stick on a bad field. It's unrealistic to think it will save you on a bad field with rocks, holes and bushes because at some  point you are still rolling and aft stick is long gone as help.

 

 

What happens when you ride a bike very fast and only lock up the front brake? You flip. Once the CT nose gear goes under you have hit the brake and it can only do one thing.

Maybe on Eddie's plane because he is so long nosed, a different design and different W&B he may only skip or slide, but I know the CT.

 

Afte stick works well on a decent surface.

 

 

The Challenge:  :clap-3332:

If you guys think we're all wrong you could go prove it on a video. I love real time testing and fact over conjecture or comparing apples to oranges.

Go land with or without power your choice and any flap setting on a field with holes large enough to drop the front wheel in, covered in bushes that stand at least 12" tall, small ditches or rocks larger than 9". If you don't flip I'll be happy to buy you dinner at a place of your choosing.  If you're right you should be able to fly right out of there. If you do it in a CT I'll know you really tried it when I see the tires pointing upward.

 

 

You guys have to forget aft stick saves all. The aircraft design plays a huge part here. 

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ok I give up.  at some point you have to lower your nose so forget it, its just not worth it.

 

 

 

 

PS  on a forced landing, at some point you have to contact your mains.  I used to pick the spot carefully but now I have a new way of thinking.

 

PPS.   Look at my video above, what if I would have landed short on the old runway?  Its full of cracks and holes that could take out my nosewheel.  Could I have then simply elevated my nosewheel until I reached the new runway?  Yes?  Nahhhhhhhhhhh,  it would be safer to flip over after all plus even though I did it in the video its not possible that nose wheel will slam down the second I try.

 

Totally useless thread, please delete

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Darn Ed,

"ok I give up"  :( 

 

Darn and I gave up my favorite TV shows for this.  :( 

 

"at some point you have to lower your nose:bad_day-3329: 

 

Just like in Eddie's video. At some point you have to lower the nose and that is more than enough speed to collapse the CT front gear. Eddie's plane is different in the same scenario.

 

Yes, Now you get it.

 

Now I get to go back and catch up on my TV episodes. :laughter-3293:  :fainting-1344: 

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Holy Moly.

Finishing up right at this spot was close. Another 15 minutes and I would have missed out on fish and lobster tacos.  :thumbs_up-3334:

Tim eat your heart out they were good with homemade chunky salsa.  :hi-1082:

That was too close.  :P

 

 

You should have come for the weekend.

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A couple points...

 

1) This thread has reminded be that I think I fell into a bad habit - I'm such a fan of power off by 50' that when I look at my recent soft field landings I am not feeding any power back in to land at the slowest possible airspeed with the wings supporting as much weight as possible. I'm going to go practice some maneuvers this afternoon - waiting for it to cool down just a touch - and I'll see if I can't get a worthwhile video. For now they'll be on pavement, but I may head over to Brasstown to practice them on grass in a few days.

 

2) I'm practicing maneuvers because in a couple of weeks I'm headed to FL in the Sky Arrow to renew my CFI certificate. I'm reviewing the "Aviation Instructor's Handbook" in preparation.

 

I came across this in the chapter on "Instructor Responsibilities and Professionalism"...

 

Practical Flight Instructor Strategies

 

During all phases of flight training, CFIs should remember they are role models for the student. The flight instructor should demonstrate good aviation sense at all times:

 

During landing—conduct stabilized approaches, maintain desired airspeed on final, demonstrate good judgment for go-arounds, wake turbulence, traffic, and terrain avoidance. Use ADM to correct faulty approaches and landing errors. Make power-off, stall-warning blaring, on centerline touchdowns in the first third of runway. 

 
 
 

No doubt this will largely fall on deaf ears, with protestations that you've got to go "outside the book" or that "there's more than one way to land a plane" (which is true). I'm just posting that to try to show how I came to fly, and teach, the way I do. I hope that benefits some of the lurkers and newbies that I'm sure read these threads.

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Hi Eddie,

 

 

"This thread has reminded be that I think I fell into a bad habit - I'm such a fan of power off by 50' that when I look at my recent soft field landings I am not feeding any power back in to land at the slowest possible airspeed with the wings supporting as much weight as possible."  :ive_got_it-1379: 

 

I figured I would die before I ever would heard this from you. :D 

 

"with protestations that you've got to go "outside the book" or that "there's more than one way to land a plane' :clap-3332: 

 

Darn I did die and didn't even know it. :bad_day-3329: 

 

 

Okay I'm going now anything from here on will be downhill.  :P  :giggle-3307: 

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No doubt this will largely fall on deaf ears, with protestations that you've got to go "outside the book" or that "there's more than one way to land a plane" (which is true). I'm just posting that to try to show how I came to fly, and teach, the way I do. I hope that benefits some of the lurkers and newbies that I'm sure read these threads.

 

The main reason I left COPA was the crowd there who no longer own a Cirrus dominate the site and argue to operate and fly outside of the Cirrus factory standards..  Cirrus and Flight Design do not sponsor COPA or other aviation sites because they cannot or do not want to control the conversation on them.  Some say pretty much say whatever they want, usually outside of the book.  Worse, the most chatty advocating non factory operations elements do not own or operate the aircraft in question.   You find that on PilotsOfAmerica in spades.

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I got up in the Sky Arrow today to practice soft field landings and a few Commercial maneuvers.

 

Here's a video I just put together of a simulated soft field touch and go without the nose touching, followed by a full stop, keeping the nose up as long as desired:

 

 

 

Looks like about 3,000 rpm is about right for the soft field landing.

 

I'll put together a video of the Commercial maneuvers which, while certainly not perfect, were a lot better than last time.

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"Looks like about 3,000 rpm is about right for the soft field landing." :thumbs_up-3334: 

 

Be still my heart the world awakens.  :eyebrow-1057: 

 

Sorry Eddie,

After years of going back and forth about different ways to land and some with power are good vs never with power, always full flaps and always full stalls I couldn't resist. I think there is a place for all types of landings and there is no always with power, flaps and speed. Just pratice them all so they are second nature in your mental and skill toolbox.

 

I think the heavier the plane and the design of the plane plays a big part in how much rpm will help. For me about 2600-2700 rpm. I have used 3K rpm, but I'm usually very heavy. It can make a difference, but as Ed points out it isn't always necessary for a soft touch. The increase in rpm during landing does help slow the vertical descent and allow the operator a better chance at a soft touch. Like Ed says just hold it off. Anything under 3K is not enough to keep you in the air. You will descend. Just hold it off as you approach your touchdown.

 

 

Eddie,

 

At what speed did your nose touch down? It looks to be about 32 knots on the gauge?

And after the nose touched and you were rolling out would aft stick do you any good in directional control?

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As promised, practicing some Commercial maneuvers in my Sky Arrow:

 
 
Some could use improvement, but that's what practice is for!

 

 

There is no substitute for flying and landing the actual aircraft.  The CT is flown by IAS which vary according the flaps on landing, not RPM.  See 4.2 of the POH.

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There is no substitute for flying and landing the actual aircraft.  The CT is flown by IAS which vary according the flaps on landing, not RPM.  See 4.2 of the POH.

One could just forget airspeed and RPM and use the angle of attack indicator. It doesn't care where the flaps are.

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One could just forget airspeed and RPM and use the angle of attack indicator. It doesn't care where the flaps are.

 

True...that would require a very high level of skill and an even higher level of trust in the AOA indicator.  I pretty much use the airspeed indication first, glancing at it then glancing at the PAPI or the TDZ, then adjust as needed on glide angle and wind correction.  I know I can be faster on approach, but not slower...it's easier to use more runway than to be slow and not have enough energy to make a reasonable round-out and touchdown IMHO

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