CTLS pre-purchase inspection tips?

[Joel Severinghaus]

We're starting a new LSA flying club in Des Moines, Iowa and have decided on a CTLS for our first plane. We're looking at several used 2008 CTLSes, both dealer demo models and privately-owned. (The warranty on a new plane would be nice, but the price depreciation on a slightly used airplane is appealing.)

 

Are there any points unique to the CTLS or Rotax 912ULS that we should give particular attention during a pre-purchase inspection? We'll use the FD and Rotax inspection checklists, of course, but is there anything else you know now that you wish you'd known to check when you were buying your CTLS?

 

I recently took the Rotax 912 Service course at Leading Edge Air Foils, so I'll know some engine questions to ask, and we'll have a Rotax-certified A&P do the pre-purchase inspection.

 

Most of the airplanes we're considering have the standard avionics and leather seats. We'd like an autopilot, and might add a Reiff engine pre-heater because we'll have an unheated T-hangar. Any other options or additions you'd recommend?

 

Thanks in advance for your advice. This is my first post here, and I'll look forward to becoming more active on the forum and getting to know you all as we get experience with our flying club CTLS.

[coppercity]

Hi Joel,

 

The CTLS will be a great plane plane for your new club! I can't think of any show stoppers on the airframe or engine that would not be found using the check sheets and good inspection of the plane and log books. I would say the biggest thing is review of the history, making sure any mods or additions were done in accordance with Flight Design LOAs and signed off correctly in the books. Knowing how the engine was run and maintained is important as well, such as did it have auto fuel or Avgas, how was the prop pitched etc. Other than that a really good visual inspection should ensure you have a good plane. Pay close attention to the nose gear area if it's been a training airplane, and also the ventral fin and the bottom/back of seats for cracks.

 

By the way Flight Design West has a new CTLS with all the options your looking for and a factory 1 year warranty for 135k, not sure if that's in your price range, but I could deliver to Iowa, and provide transition training if your interested.

[Roger Lee]

Hi Joel,

 

This could be a long email going back and forth and it would be much easier to chat over the phone and answers all your questions at one time. Give me a call 520-574-1080.

 

 

Nice to see you over on the CTFlier website. Great plane you'll have lots of fun just like the rest of us.

 

Des Moines, Iowa is where I bought my plane Dec. 19, 4 years ago and flew home. That was 660 hrs ago.

[Joel Severinghaus]

Eric,

 

Thanks for the advice -- some of the planes we're considering have had modifications or additions, so proper documentation with Letters of Authorization from Flight Design will be on our list of things to check. Part of the appeal of a used demo plane from a distributor is that one assumes their maintenance, operation, and record-keeping standards might be higher than private owners. And thanks for the offer to deliver a new plane from the West Coast, but we're really only looking at Midwest planes in the $120K range.

 

Roger,

 

You must have bought a CTSW from Bob Ellefson in Des Moines? We looked at his 2006 CTSW demo plane, which is for sale here, but it has only analog instruments, no GPS, no autopilot. Besides, we really have our hearts set on a CTLS for the extra windows, hat shelf, and other features.

 

I will take you up on your kind offer and phone you tomorrow. Thanks!

[coppercity]

Hi Joel,

 

Well it was worth a shot! If you have any questions at all when it comes to transitioning to the CT or helping your fellow club members learn to fly the CT let us know. We have been instructing in CTs for over two years now and have developed some techniques that can be helpful. Good luck on your search and make sure to call Roger, he is full of CT knowledge that will really help you out!

[FredG]

Joel,

I purchased my CTsw from Bob Ellefson in 2008. Small world. I'm hangared at KIOW now. We have a fair number of FD aircraft in IA, nice to see.

Not sure I can assist with your LS purchase, but if you have questions about CTs in Iowa, feel free to send me a message thru CT Flier.

Fred Gerr

N78SR

[Runtoeat]

Joel, you picked the best forum to hang out in for all things Light Sport related, in particular specific information for Flight Design aircraft. A CTLS is an excellent choice as the plane for your flying club. Whether it's being used to train for transition to Light Sport flying, taking short trips or long X-country travel, the CTLS is the best Light Sport aircraft to own.

 

There is a 6 year parachute repack required and a 5 year replacement of "all rubber components" on the Rotax. These are things to consider when negotiating a price for a used CTLS.

[Joel Severinghaus]

Fred,

 

I think I've seen you and your plane at Iowa fly-ins. My first 1.6 hours of Flight Design time was at the Iowa City airport last August, after the fly-in breakfast there, with Tim Busch in his Cedar Rapids-based CTLS. I had flown over from Ankeny in my 1946 Taylorcraft, which I finally sold last month so I can invest in our club's CTLS. There are now two CTSWs based at Ankeny, and our new CTLS might start there while we wait for a T-hangar to come available at Des Moines.

 

Dick,

 

We've been crunching numbers with financial projection spreadsheets to ensure the club accumulates sufficient maintenance reserves, but we hadn't thought of the parachute repack and Rotax re-rubbering. How much should we estimate for those little expenses?

 

We spent many months researching various LSA models, and also test-flew a Remos GX and a PiperSport, but the CTLS looks like the best solution for a flying club with pilots of various sizes, pilots who just want to fly locally for less-than-$100 hamburgers, and pilots who want to take spouses on long cross-country trips. I had assumed that we'd appeal mostly to older pilots losing medicals who want to keep flying as Sport Pilots, but we've also got members who are Private Pilots with medicals, who want to fly something newer, better equipped, and less expensive than the Cessna and Piper rental options in the area. I think our CTLS will stay busy.

 

Thanks,

Joel

[Murrell]

"I had assumed that we'd appeal mostly to older pilots losing medicals who want to keep flying as Sport Pilots,"

 

If I may; I'm sure you realize a pilot losing his medical, Can Not fly as a Sport Pilot.

 

Murrell

The Silent One

[Runtoeat]

Hi Joel. Starting in 2011 there will be significant numbers of older CTSW's that will start requiring Rotax rubber replacement. There are experts on this forum for repair and maintenance of the CT that are trying to determine approximate costs for this. Since the hoses and rubber components on the Rotax are designed and released by FD, Matt at Flight Design USA is the main source for cost info for Flight Design factory parts . We would like to see a list from FD of the required parts with associated costs but I do not believe that this list has been developed. Perhaps Lockwood Aviation, Leading Edge Airfoils, California Power Systems or FD USA can provide an estimate of costs to purchase replacement rubber parts? As for the BRS parachute, a call to BRS company or a second company that appears to also be doing the repack, Second Chantz in Nevada, can provide you with a cost for this.

[SWeidemann]

CT Fliers,

 

I have been following the CT series for years and am considering a used CT to purchase since some of the older ones are in a much better price range than the new ones.

 

My question is: What specific areas should I be looking at as potential trouble spots for expensive maintenance? Since this is a composite, what kind of damage history is a deal killer? Is there a way to visually inspect the airframe for things such as over-stress? I know the parachute needs repacked every six years & the engine rubber needs to be replaced at a Rotax specified time. I would like the autopilot option however what in $ is it worth and are they reliable? I assume their are mechanics who will do a pre-purchase inspection for this specific aircraft however would my GA A&P know what to look for as well?

 

Any helpful advice would be appreciated.

 

Thanks much, Skot

[Jim Meade]

Skot,

Your A&P may be entirely competent in general terms and not be the best guy for an LSA w/Rotax. His general impression of the airplane's airworthiness may be reliable. The first place the traditional A&P is going to have trouble is the maintenance documentation question. A&P don't know to look in the FD and Rotax sites, for example, and don't know what is required by the FAA and what is simply strongly pushed by FD and Rotax. Next, there is a difference between periodic maintenance. For example, the Piper doesn't have the rubber change requirements (in the same way) as the Rotax - he may not appreciate the difference. (But he may be just as competent to do the work.)

There is considerable discussion on this within the LSA community, let alone when you get 'off the reservation".

The A&P may be entirely competent such as if an airframe is safe and within specs. The A&Ps I know around here could certainly perform rigging and so forth. They would probably not be my first choice to balance carbs on a Rotax 912. They may know Cessnas better than FD but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be helpful with the FD at all but would have to refer to the specs just as he would if he got in a new Cessna. He may know avionics, but he is not so likely to know Dynon avionics if he isn't experienced with them.

In your general area, you have some nice support nearby. Kent Johnson of Stanton Aviation south of Minneapolis is very knowledgeable on CTs. He is a dealer and does a lot of maintenance for other local pilots, including me. LEAF is south of Oshkosh and knowledgeable on Rotax. Stein Air is near the Twin Cities and does all kinds of avionics work.. I'd be entirely confident asking those nearby resources for advice and help on FD, Rotax and Dynon.

I have the very same question on autopilot. I have the TruTrack II and it works very well in nearly all cases. I've been advised by experts to keep it. For other reasons, I have an inclination to change to Dynon. My research indicates Dynon would also be fine but I've not flown it as of yet. I guess that means I can't help you or maybe it means either would be fine.

If I were in your shoes, I'd call Kent Johnson at Stanton Airfield.

[Roger Lee]

Hi Skot,

 

Get a hold of Tom Baker here on the forum. He would be very knowledgable to do a pre-buy. There are others in your area and I'm sure others here will give you some names, but I would use someone that does several CT's a year so they have some experience. I would not use an A&P that has little to no CT experience.

People who have the short 2-3 line annual logbook entries usually commands a $5K+ lower price. People with really good logbook entries get better prices and that have had them hangared and in good shape. If someone has neglected the scheduled maint. Or calls himself a minimalist then you may want to look some where else so you don't need to spend money trying to get things back in shape or up to par.

If you need any help please call and I'll be happy to help.

[Ian]

Wow gbigs - do you sell cars for a living??

[Tip]

A newer CTLS is available in Canada. Is it possible to register a plane originally delivered to Canada in the US?

[Jacques]

Is it possible to register a plane originally delivered to Canada in the US?

 

NO...not a Light Sport Aircraft as there is no equivalence in Canada.

In Canada, the CTLS (and SW) are registered as 'Advanced Ultralight Aeroplane' [AULA] limited to a 1232 lbs gross weight.

[Roger Lee]

I guess this post is as good as any to talk about re-sale values. Who sets these values, WE DO, so it behooves all of us not to low ball ourselves as a community when we go to sell our plane. A study was just done on the number of planes sold, the plane's MFG year, which year they re-sold and for how much. Here is a pretty good guide as to your plane's value. The highest price and lowest price was thrown out. We all know outside fuselage care counts, keeping it in a hangar counts, but a really big factor that I wrote a research paper about a long time ago was logbook entries. The better the detail and completeness of the logbooks the higher the re-sale by as much as $5k-$10K. Poor logbook entries (i.e. 2-4 line annual entries or lack of entries, or no SB entries cost your money, failing to do SB's). Some have argued they don't legally have to do these things, but it will cost you money and it bears out in the reality of past re-sales. Most people want these done because usually the lack of some maint. usually mean a lack of over all maint attention and that either scares people or they know it will cost them extra money after the sale. These prices will vary too because of analog gauges verses Dynon, nav radios, auto pilot, leather interior verses cloth just to mention a couple variances. Installing a 696 Garmin for $4K won't get you $4K more in a sale.

Here is the guide and yes it could vary some, but these are fairly standard and probably where we should keep our re-sale prices.

CTSW 2005 $65-$73

CTSW 2006 $74-$81

CTSW 2007 $79-$88

CTLS 2008 $95-$105

CTLS 2009 $105-$110

 

I hope this will help people and by helping yourself it will help the entire CT re-sale market.

[Tom Baker]

Roger, who did the study on prices? I know from a selling stand point that people would check the value based on Vref or some other pricing guide and they were saying the value for a 2008 CTLS was around 90-95 thousand. The problem is the price was not based on anything other than the publishers idea of what the airplanes should be worth. There was no tracking of sales to base the price on. I know John at Sebring offered to provide copies of sales agreements, and they were not interested.

[FlyingMonkey]

I guess buying new might make sense if you are looking at near new CTLS. But you can find 2006 CTSWs for $65-75k pretty often with pretty low hours. I can't see how that is a worse plan than paying more than double for a new CTLS. Even a new CTLS with 100hrs is going to be at a huge discount to brand new. Seems to me you are really paying a huge premium for "new plane smell". Let some other schmuck take the depreciation hit, and get yourself a bottle of new car smell spray for three bucks.

[Roger Lee]

But they're all fun, get you where you're going and let you see sights that land lubbers rarely see.

 

It's all good.

[Jim Meade]

But they're all fun, get you where you're going and let you see sights that land lubbers rarely see.

 

It's all good.

 

Exactly. And they both go about as fast, fly about as high (for an SP), fairly close to as far, can handle the same airspace and carry close to the same payload. No doubt, all of us would like the snazzy new one if we had the money. But, airplanes, like cars, are very much an individual decision.

[coppercity]

I love my CTLS, but I still love my 53 year old Comanche too. I can put my family of four, 6 hours of gas and 200lbs of bags in my old Comanche and beat the airlines to most places for half the cost of four tickets. Plus I bought it for less then my SUV. The tin cans still have a place, at least for me. If its just my wife and I travelling though, its the CTLS all the way!

[FlyingMonkey]

MrMorden. Your logic stands more for a car than a Flight Design. The difference is massive between a CTLSW and a 2013 CTLSi. The basic shell of the plane is close, but the cockpit avionics is night and day. And the delta between the fuel injected engine with new electrical and Dynon EMS are also complete reinventions.

 

You get what you pay for. Thats why old Cessnas are so cheap, they are basically junk. And the 6 year old CTLSs would need $50k in avionics upgrades to match the new planes.

 

Sure, I understand that the CTLS has more whiz-bang. But it's also about 50lb heavier, that cuts directly into useful load. That is a big deal to me. And it's not really as if the Dynon D180/D100 system in the CTSW is ancient or obsolete technology -- it beats what comes standard in many new airplanes costing $200k+.

 

What I really care about is how the aircraft performs; gadgets are nice to have, but I have flown steam gauge planes that I have preferred to some of the glass airplanes I've flown. In the end it's about the flying part to me, not how all the data gets presented to me. And the CTSW in terms of performance is every bit the equal of the CTLS, and if you consider load part of that equation it is better. Maybe not so for the CTLSi simply because of its much lower fuel burn.

 

I have trouble thinking of an airplane that will probably have a 30+ year lifespan as a "piece of junk" because it's six years old and has 200 hours. We're probably not going to agree on this, and that's fine...different opinions and priorities is what makes talking to other pilots and airplane owners so interesting!

[Jim Meade]

I have several thousand hours in older Cessna singles and my experience of the fuel usage, properly leaned, is:

C150 @ 5-6 gph

C172 @ 8-10 gph

C182 @ 11-13 gph

T210 @ 18 gph ROP high cruise, but I flew it LOP and consistently burned and flight planned 12.6 gph

 

 

[FlyingMonkey]

I was referring to the 50lb delta between the CTSW and CTLS. The CTLSi is slightly porkier yet.