WmInce Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 3 hours ago, Warmi said: . . . . . still some people would rather not sit on a fuel tank ...so I guess pick your poison What could possibly go wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Koerner Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 Once again, I agree with everyone… except Ed flying around with one tank empty. I can't conscience that (Did I use that word right?). In a 172; sure, but not in a CT. But other than that: Yes, we have plenty of fuel capacity (unless you want to go really, really far). Yes, prolonged (as in a few minutes) porting of the tank with fuel is the issue (if the other tank has no fuel or has been shut off). Yes, you can just fly coordinated all the time. (I certainly try to... to the degree that it’s not an encumbrance on my flying enjoyment. But that doesn’t necessarily mean your wings will drain evenly. Apparently, differences in total pressure recovery by the tank vents and fuel plumbing restrictions tend to favor one wing over the other.Variations in the mounting of the slip indicator instrument, the ball, may also play a role.) Yes, rocking your wings every so often will address the issue if one of the sight gauges is showing empty in coordinated flight (but make it an uncoordinated rock, just using the stick for example. Better yet, just keep some fuel in both sides, then you don’t have to worry). Yes, you can rock the wings in the pattern (but with the power back there should be more than enough fuel in the lines to get you around the pattern. And again, there is no need to worry as long as there’s fuel showing in both sides. Also, the fact that the pattern turns are all the same direction doesn’t matter as long as the turns are coordinated. In a coordinated turn the fuel thinks you’re flying straight and level, just like the ball.) Yes, we are overthinking this (It only matters if you’re trying to eek out the last bit of distance with nearly empty tanks). Yes, that should not happen with 34 gallon capacity (and any semblance of planning). Which reminds me of a fuel stop at Northway in 2006. They didn’t have any, and apparently they hadn't in a long time. Of course, the neat thing about a CT is that I could just have someone drive me into town with my jugs to get auto fuel at the gas station. Only, it was getting kind of late in the afternoon and I wanted to get to Fairbanks. I don’t remember what calculations I made or what incantations I uttered, but I took off from a planned fuel stop with no added fuel anyway. It’s amazing how remote and completely unlandable that stretch is (except for the highway), especially when your watching your sight tubes every few seconds. I hated balancing out the fuel because it meant flying uncoordinated and I really wanted to fly as efficiently as possible. I made it anyway, with plenty of fuel still showing in both sides. Mike Koerner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 3 hours ago, Mike Koerner said: I hated balancing out the fuel because it meant flying uncoordinated and I really wanted to fly as efficiently as possible. I made it anyway, with plenty of fuel still showing in both sides. Mike Koerner Hey Mike... My experience has been that for a given power setting, flying uncoordinated enough to transfer fuel from one tank to another (usually 1/2 to 1 ball out of center) has no appreciable effect on flight efficiency. I mean, I'm sure it *does* create some more drag, but in several tests I've conducted I have seen no speed decrease when doing this that required more power to compensate. In my mind, it's is a "cost free" operation to keep the tanks balanced. Though as always, pilots should rely on their own experience and testing, and not the lies and deceit propagated on the internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 3 hours ago, Mike Koerner said: I agree with everyone… except Ed flying around with one tank empty. Once again the wrong take-away. The point to agree with is that the CT will continue to fly normally if you empty only one tank. I'm not advocating that you practice it but that you have this knowledge. I comes in handy when when one is about to go dry due to imbalance. With the knowledge that it flies fine with one empty you can choose to continue to fly coordinated. Same point when I reported that there is a bit of time after both tubes go dry (or at least can be). I'm not advocating flying in this condition but if you find yourself there knowing what to expect can help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 7 minutes ago, FlyingMonkey said: Hey Mike... My experience has been that for a given power setting, flying uncoordinated enough to transfer fuel from one tank to another (usually 1/2 to 1 ball out of center) has no appreciable effect on flight efficiency. I mean, I'm sure it *does* create some more drag, but in several tests I've conducted I have seen no speed decrease when doing this that required more power to compensate. In my mind, it's is a "cost free" operation to keep the tanks balanced. Though as always, pilots should rely on their own experience and testing, and not the lies and deceit propagated on the internet. I find the same, transfer happens quickly and the slip seems to cost nothing. My habit is to only install fuel in one wing and the other is often empty. Its worth nothing when I start the flight with an empty tank I will have 5 gallons in the empty wing by pattern altitude without trying. The hardest part is to look frequently enough, if I only look once in a while I remain balanced easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 1 minute ago, Ed Cesnalis said: I find the same, transfer happens quickly and the slip seems to cost nothing. My habit is to only install fuel in one wing and the other is often empty. Its worth nothing when I start the flight with an empty tank I will have 5 gallons in the empty wing by pattern altitude without trying. Especially if my airplane will sit a few hours or more before flying, I always fuel just the left. The fuel will transfer to the right until they are roughly even in that amount of time. If I'm going to fly right away and the tanks are both equally low I will fuel them both. It would certainly be valid to fill one tank and balance them in flight as well. I wouldn't take off unless I could see fuel in both tubes though. YMMV. In fact, I have my tubes marked at 10g, 5g and 2.5g lines on each side. The 5g lines are my "no take off" lines. I have flown below that level on long flight legs, but I don't take off with less fuel than that unless I'm staying in the pattern and keeping the flight short (for testing after maintenance, for example). The 2.5g lines are the "I must be on the ground" lines. These lines have kept me out of trouble and with about double VFR reserve fuel about for 5 years now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndianaCTSW Posted February 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Ed Cesnalis said: I will have 5 gallons in the empty wing by pattern altitude without trying. Does the fuel mix before or after the fuel selector? I only ask because I haven’t notice mine level when sitting in the hangar but I always have the fuel shut off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted February 12, 2019 Report Share Posted February 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, IndianaCTSW said: Does the fuel mix before or after the fuel selector? I only ask because I haven’t notice mine level when sitting in the hangar but I always have the fuel shut off. Before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted February 13, 2019 Report Share Posted February 13, 2019 16 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said: . . . . My experience has been that for a given power setting, flying uncoordinated enough to transfer fuel from one tank to another (usually 1/2 to 1 ball out of center) has no appreciable effect on flight efficiency. I mean, I'm sure it *does* create some more drag, but in several tests I've conducted I have seen no speed decrease when doing this that required more power to compensate. In my mind, it's is a "cost free" operation to keep the tanks balanced. Though as always, pilots should rely on their own experience and testing, and not the lies and deceit propagated on the internet. Concur with that. When the fuel total gets around 19-20 gallons, at least one tank fuel level becomes visible.That’s when consideration of balancing begins. My experience has been, if I need to balance, I do it in 10-15 minute increments. That’s usually long enough to effect a worthwhile correction. I use “wing-tip verses horizon” method. It works just fine. As Andy alluded above, there is no appreciable decrease in performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted February 13, 2019 Report Share Posted February 13, 2019 BTW, one can overbalance tanks if not paying attention. On one trip I set up a slip to transfer fuel, then got busy picking my way around some marginal weather. When I got back to checking fuel I had transferred almost twice what I wanted to, and had to transfer back the other way. Bill's 10-15min rule of thumb is good, you might even want to set a timer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ct9000 Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 The flight manual even mentions that a slight side slip will not effect performance. But why not work out where you need to be to use fuel evenly and fly that way. After all is considered why should you fly in a sideslip. If the a/c is balanced properly it will use fuel evenly from both tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 51 minutes ago, ct9000 said: The flight manual even mentions that a slight side slip will not effect performance. But why not work out where you need to be to use fuel evenly and fly that way. After all is considered why should you fly in a sideslip. If the a/c is balanced properly it will use fuel evenly from both tanks. I think that last statement is incorrect, most CTs favor one tank over the other. Mine will drain faster from the left tank, even in dead calm air with the ball dead center. It's not a huge difference, but noticeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 " If the a/c is balanced properly it will use fuel evenly from both tanks." Not true in REAL life even in the GA world with FLAT tanks. There are too many influencing factors that would need to be just right and any one of them that are off including the pilot can cause an imbalance in fuel flow. This has been around for many decades and is not a new issue involving aircraft with flat tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted February 21, 2019 Report Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 hour ago, ct9000 said: The flight manual even mentions that a slight side slip will not effect performance. But why not work out where you need to be to use fuel evenly and fly that way. After all is considered why should you fly in a sideslip. If the a/c is balanced properly it will use fuel evenly from both tanks. I think your right but everyone's panel is cocked and a centered ball means a slip ??? I calibrate my ball from time to time using the sight tubes because they don't lie and sometimes its right and sometimes its off a bit. I think the binnacle moves around or at least can move. Mt CT no longer favors one side, prolly the way I fly and read my ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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