Bought a CTLSi and selling my CTLS

[okent]

I had the chance to get a 2013 CTLSi and pulled the trigger today.  It has really low hours, is local and I've flown it.  Owner is just not able to fly anymore.  Hard to pass up.

Any thoughts or tips on the CTLSi are appreciated.

[Bill3558]

Jealous.  Got my transition trading in one. Love the electric trim. 
your gonna love it. 

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

140 hours on a '13, nice bird - congrats.  I noticed the Delta Whisky tail number when this plane listed, and thought that would save me the step of N # change.  When you're ready to sell this, hit me up. 

[okent]

Will do.  I knew the plane was coming up for sale and made the guy an offer and I've known him for over a year.  He listed it on Barnstormers and then today he called me out of the blue and said he would take the offer.

Met him at lunch and cut a check.  He said he just didn't like the idea of dealing with the shoppers and happy to know it was going to someone he knew.  I'm 4 hangars down from him.

It does have the smaller tires but the type of flying I do I never really land on grass strips so I'll like the increased in cruise speed.

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

I'll be interested to see your long term opinion on the smaller tires.  When I first bought my SW I thought I'd really need to upgrade to larger size being based on turf.  These CT's are light enough that even the smaller size operate fine on soft ground.  Honestly, I think the wear issues of tread (SW's with Marc brakes) on hard runways is the primary topic around tire size, and yes - those extra few knots are a bonus.  I'm still on the hunt for tundra wheel fairings, would like to own both, but have become perfectly content with the smaller set up and the Marc brakes as well, as I don't use much braking in the grass home based strip.

[okent]

I flew the "new" plane earlier this year and didn't see any bit difference in the landing characteristics.  Granted it was only three laps in the pattern.  If there was any difference it would be that the bigger tires give it a little softer feel on landing but that's about it.

[Duane Jefts]

Congrats on your 2013 CTLSi.  You will discover longer range and fuel savings, especially at altitude.

I have been flying a 2013i since 2013. Been to point Barrow, AK and back and did not have to land in Canada (overfly along the coast was easy).   You are going to love it.

[AGLyme]

Suggest you have the prop pitch reviewed/ adjusted... 

I have never flown in a carb 912, so looking forward to your thoughts on the differences.  The gas savings is officially 20% improved and it does make a difference on a long trip.  I know a guy who went over the top of the clouds once and didn’t see the ground for 6 hours... what a dumbass that guy was but thank Goodness my plane was sipping under 4 gals / hour... eventually landed with lots of gas to spare...

send pics when u r able please, congrats !! 

[Warmi]

16 minutes ago, AGLyme said:

Suggest you have the prop pitch reviewed/ adjusted... 

I have never flown in a carb 912, so looking forward to your thoughts on the differences.  The gas savings is officially 20% improved and it does make a difference on a long trip.  I know a guy who went over the top of the clouds once and didn’t see the ground for 6 hours... what a dumbass that guy was but thank Goodness my plane was sipping under 4 gals / hour... eventually landed with lots of gas to spare...

send pics when u r able please, congrats !! 

6 hours you say ... that’s bordering on heroic - my behind gets pretty universally numb at around 2:30 hours ...

[AGLyme]

Warmi, there is a big gulf between heroic and dumb... ; )  The air above was A+, the nice Controllers kept advising to "stay VFR".  I studied the WX for an hour before takeoff and the clouds were allegedly scattered for the vast majority of the way, the opposite was true.  I don't know which tool was the star of the day... the Auto Pilot or the pee bottle... both performed brilliantly.  I wasn't terribly nervous knowing that if I had to descend I could easily using the A/P and instruments.  There were a lot of IFR GA planes flying that day (could hear them on with ATC) so the air in the clouds was "safe" (no ice, no turb).  The FD is really a great traveler.  I like taking long trips in it.  Learned a ton on that trip.

[okent]

11 hours ago, AGLyme said:

Suggest you have the prop pitch reviewed/ adjusted... 

I have never flown in a carb 912, so looking forward to your thoughts on the differences.  The gas savings is officially 20% improved and it does make a difference on a long trip.  I know a guy who went over the top of the clouds once and didn’t see the ground for 6 hours... what a dumbass that guy was but thank Goodness my plane was sipping under 4 gals / hour... eventually landed with lots of gas to spare...

send pics when u r able please, congrats !! 

What prop pitch are you all running?  My 2008 is pitched at 5650 max straight and level.

The plane has been meticulously maintained.  It has been sitting in Rex Johnson's hangar at KRVS it's whole life.  He's an excellent CT/Rotax mechanic.

The previous owner rents the hangar to Rex and I'm in there almost weekly.  Made the decision to by easy.

The only difference I noticed was that the 912iS is just a little smoother.  That's about it so far.

[AGLyme]

Okent, remember this string?

 

 

[andyb]

5 hours ago, AGLyme said:

Warmi, there is a big gulf between heroic and dumb... ; )  The air above was A+, the nice Controllers kept advising to "stay VFR".  I studied the WX for an hour before takeoff and the clouds were allegedly scattered for the vast majority of the way, the opposite was true.  I don't know which tool was the star of the day... the Auto Pilot or the pee bottle... both performed brilliantly.  I wasn't terribly nervous knowing that if I had to descend I could easily using the A/P and instruments.  There were a lot of IFR GA planes flying that day (could hear them on with ATC) so the air in the clouds was "safe" (no ice, no turb).  The FD is really a great traveler.  I like taking long trips in it.  Learned a ton on that trip.

Respectfully, I'd be very very cautions about assuming that you can go through clouds using the autopilot, and that it's safe in terms of clouds being free of ice.

With 2,300 hours flown on instrument flight plans prior to owning the CTLSi, I can say that understanding whether there's ice in the clouds goes way beyond whether there are other GA planes flying IFR.  A fundamental part of instrument flying is being able to complete the mission should the autopilot fail, and for a non-instrument pilot, or flying in a plane not certified for instrument conditions, it's an extremely precarious (i.e. risk of fatality) place to be.

Further, a VFR plane in IMC doesn't have the separation services that the IFR planes need, to be sure there aren't midair incidents.

Andy

[AGLyme]

Thanks Andy, appreciate your comments very much.  Whenever anyone starts a sentence with the term “respectfully”... watch out...; )...

That is why I shared my dumb experience.  Because it was dumb.

PS, I emerged in blue skies, I did not go through clouds on my descent.  

[andyb]

1 hour ago, AGLyme said:

Thanks Andy, appreciate your comments very much.  Whenever anyone starts a sentence with the term “respectfully”... watch out...; )...

That is why I shared my dumb experience.  Because it was dumb.

PS, I emerged in blue skies, I did not go through clouds on my descent.  

Great to hear the outcome, as well as the learning experience.  We've all had them!

Andy

[Skunkworks85]

Keep in mind that if your pitot tube freezes up, your autopilot will put you into a decent. 

[John Vance]

19 minutes ago, Skunkworks85 said:

Keep in mind that if your pitot tube freezes up, your autopilot will put you into a decent. 

Freezing the pitot tube doesn’t affect the static pressure fed to the autopilot and altimeter.  So the autopilot will maintain altitude with a plugged pitot. However, there is something called “altimeter effect”, though, caused by a frozen pitot. It causes the airspeed indicator to act like an altimeter, i.e. climbing will cause the airspeed indication to rise, and descending causes is to go down. In an extreme case, a long descent using the autopilot might cause the a/p to eventually sense an airspeed below the set minimum, which would cause it to nose down further, resulting in a feedback loop and an increasingly steep descent.  Is this what you were referring to?

[AGLyme]

Guys, I regret sharing the story publicly.  It was summer, 85 degrees in Illinois when I took off and flew at 3,500 feet, climbing to 5,500  with FF the whole way with a 4 knot tailwind.  ATC was great, and I was legal.  Never flew near a cloud in the traditional VFR definition.  Landed with 8 gals in the wings and 1.8 gals in the header tank. It was just as hot when I landed in eastern PA... Skunk, I dare you to share a  humble “I learned from that, there but the grace of God go I” story... ; )... the point is, the 912 injected motor sips gas.

[Skunkworks85]

1 hour ago, AGLyme said:

Guys, I regret sharing the story publicly.  It was summer, 85 degrees in Illinois when I took off and flew at 3,500 feet, climbing to 5,500  with FF the whole way with a 4 knot tailwind.  ATC was great, and I was legal.  Never flew near a cloud in the traditional VFR definition.  Landed with 8 gals in the wings and 1.8 gals in the header tank. It was just as hot when I landed in eastern PA... Skunk, I dare you to share a  humble “I learned from that, there but the grace of God go I” story... ; )... the point is, the 912 injected motor sips gas.

 

11 hours ago, John Vance said:

Freezing the pitot tube doesn’t affect the static pressure fed to the autopilot and altimeter.  So the autopilot will maintain altitude with a plugged pitot. However, there is something called “altimeter effect”, though, caused by a frozen pitot. It causes the airspeed indicator to act like an altimeter, i.e. climbing will cause the airspeed indication to rise, and descending causes is to go down. In an extreme case, a long descent using the autopilot might cause the a/p to eventually sense an airspeed below the set minimum, which would cause it to nose down further, resulting in a feedback loop and an increasingly steep descent.  Is this what you were referring to?

John,

I have talk to the TruTrac people, Now Bendix King, about what where to happen if the the AP where to lose the air speed indication. They stated, without hesitation, that the AP will recognize the "min airspeed" condition at which point, it will point the nose at the ground at 500fpm until disconnected or higher airspeed indication was reached.

This is why a freezing up pitot tube will point your AC into the ground with the trutrac DigiFlight II anyway.

 

[John Vance]

Ok, I’ve not experienced a frozen pitot tube, so I’m just going by what I learned in studying for the instrument exam. My understanding is that if water freezes at the pitot tube inlet, the air pressure in the pitot line is trapped in there. So you don’t “lose” airspeed indication. The airspeed indicator (and a/p) would continue to compare the static pressure to the (now locked in) dynamic pressure to provide an erroneous airspeed.  The altimeter still works because it doesn’t care about dynamic pressure. 

[Skunkworks85]

3 hours ago, John Vance said:

Ok, I’ve not experienced a frozen pitot tube, so I’m just going by what I learned in studying for the instrument exam. My understanding is that if water freezes at the pitot tube inlet, the air pressure in the pitot line is trapped in there. So you don’t “lose” airspeed indication. The airspeed indicator (and a/p) would continue to compare the static pressure to the (now locked in) dynamic pressure to provide an erroneous airspeed.  The altimeter still works because it doesn’t care about dynamic pressure. 

Ahh, I did not think of it that way. This is assuming you have a sealed system(no pitot leaks) and I doubt many CT's have had pitot checks.

 

It all depends on where is freezes, If it freezes before the drain(no drain on dynon non-heated tubes) this will not be the case. What if the tip slowly started to ice over?  which would lower to orifice effective size. thereby indicating a lower airspeed?

 

From my understanding, that while flying, the most likely area for the freeze to occur is at the tip, where the venturi effect will drop the air temps.

 

 

 

[John Vance]

I’m not sure where it tends to freeze first, but even though the FD pitot is shaped like a venturi tube, there’s no venturi effect because there’s no flow. The air stagnates there, turning the kinetic energy into thermal energy.  The temperature rise is not significant at these speeds but there’s definitely no cooling there.  You’re spot-on with the line leaks - if there’s even a small one, the pressure would bleed off rapidly. 

[okent]

9 hours ago, AGLyme said:

Guys, I regret sharing the story publicly.  It was summer, 85 degrees in Illinois when I took off and flew at 3,500 feet, climbing to 5,500  with FF the whole way with a 4 knot tailwind.  ATC was great, and I was legal.  Never flew near a cloud in the traditional VFR definition.  Landed with 8 gals in the wings and 1.8 gals in the header tank. It was just as hot when I landed in eastern PA... Skunk, I dare you to share a  humble “I learned from that, there but the grace of God go I” story... ; )... the point is, the 912 injected motor sips gas.

I'm glad you shared the story and have no advice or judgement.  I'm a doc and we have a process called Morbidity and Mortality conference.  We discuss complications and errors in a judgement free zone so we all learn.  No pointing of fingers, just knowledge sharing.

[Warmi]

10 hours ago, Skunkworks85 said:

 

John,

I have talk to the TruTrac people, Now Bendix King, about what where to happen if the the AP where to lose the air speed indication. They stated, without hesitation, that the AP will recognize the "min airspeed" condition at which point, it will point the nose at the ground at 500fpm until disconnected or higher airspeed indication was reached.

This is why a freezing up pitot tube will point your AC into the ground with the trutrac DigiFlight II anyway.

 

How does the autopilot know what it means to point down at 500fpm if all input is unreliable ( pitot and static ) ?  Once you have unreliable input data, the best option is to shut down which is what most AP installations do.

[Skunkworks85]

2 hours ago, Warmi said:

How does the autopilot know what it means to point down at 500fpm if all input is unreliable ( pitot and static ) ?  Once you have unreliable input data, the best option is to shut down which is what most AP 

Why would the static source be unreliable?