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S-LSA Repair Confusion


EEProf

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OK, first by way of disclaimer I need to state that I own an EKOLOT Topaz and not a CTSW. Since they are so similar and I am the only person who owns one of the four registered in the US that is not working for EKOLOT, I have found some comfort here with you folks.

So, we are bleeding the brakes and after multiple, fruitless scans of the repair manual, I discover that since the braking system is made by Beringer, all the maintenance for it is in their manual! During the bleeding the bleed nipple snaps off the master cylinder (MC). I manage to get the small, threaded piece out of the bleed hole and go scanning the Beringer parts manual for my MC to find out what the bleed nipple P/N is. I find it, but even though it says it goes in the Topaz, it is not what is in my aircraft. I discover that the MC I have is a Czech "Kaspar Aero"! Just shoot me now.

I find the MC that I own on the Kaspar website, but no parts breakdown other than a rebuild kit (thank God for small favors, that will come in handy someday). I shot them an email days ago but apparently they are either out of business or shut down until Prague defrosts this spring. In the interim, I figure out that it is a 4 mm (M4) threaded hole. The smallest metric nipple anywhere in the US is M6. So, almost in despair, I discover that racing motorcycle yokes have to be bled regulalrly, just like brakes. The OEM market has come up with inexpensive pushbutton bleeder valves and, guess what? They are all 4 mm!

Now we come to my question. I put the PB bleeder valve on my MC and it fits perfectly (see photo). It clears the brake lever and the parking brake latch. It actually looks like it came with it. Is it legal? 

Bleeder Valve.jpg

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2 minutes ago, Tom Baker said:

Probably not, but I wouldn't worry about it.

Not at all worried, I am converting this bird to E-LSA after the next condition inspection.

My question speaks to the regs and what constitutes a mod on an S-LSA if the parts in question do not show up in the documentation. For example, on a certified A/C every part, every nut, washer, you name it is in the parts manual along with the approved P/N. From my understanding of the S-LSA, it's similar except for the fact that the parts need not be TSO'd/PMA'd or STC'd. If you add something to an LSA, you need a letter. In this case, you have a critical part (master cylinder) that is under the radar. So does that mean that for this part you can do what you want?

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The end game here is when you convert to E-LSA, no worries at all.  S-LSA process for this won't be fun, and I'm with Tom - this is pretty trivial item, I would not have brought this up - but welcome to forum.  If it bothers you until E-LSA is complete, try to obtain the factory bleed screw from Beringer and go back to stock, that will be the best / easiest path as S-LSA.

Topaz is an interesting airplane, talked to a guy in IL who bought a slightly damaged one and repaired it - gear mishap as I recall.  Shame there are not more around.

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2 hours ago, Warmi said:

On a separate note .. how do you like your Topaz so far?

I am seriously thinking about switching to a high wing at some point and the new Ekolot Topaz short wing would be a strong contender ..

The Topaz was the perfect replacement for my Mooney as I head into a 'less intense' period of aviation. The guy who sold it to me, a retired ATP, called it a "gentleman's airplane." Not quite sure what that means, but I have to admit that it is just an incredible bird. The 'problem' with it is that there are very, very few flying here in the US and dealing with the 'company' is problematic because they are very, very Polish. I will not go into what I mean by that, only that communication is, let's say, complicated.

That said, EKOLOT has a 50 year history of building gliders. They only forayed into the powered aircraft space in the last decade or so. They have a significant amount of experience in building planes that really have no need of a BRS--they will glide, well, like a glider.

Frankly, I fail to understand why the Flight Design birds are so popular given the EKOLOT offerings.

 

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5 hours ago, EEProf said:

Not at all worried, I am converting this bird to E-LSA after the next condition inspection.

My question speaks to the regs and what constitutes a mod on an S-LSA if the parts in question do not show up in the documentation. For example, on a certified A/C every part, every nut, washer, you name it is in the parts manual along with the approved P/N. From my understanding of the S-LSA, it's similar except for the fact that the parts need not be TSO'd/PMA'd or STC'd. If you add something to an LSA, you need a letter. In this case, you have a critical part (master cylinder) that is under the radar. So does that mean that for this part you can do what you want?

For a SLSA any change from how the airplane was delivered from the factory requires approval. It is more resrictive than the standard category aircraft. For example the addition of a quick drain for the oil. You can install a FAA-PMA valve on a standard category aircraft with just a logbook entry. For a SLSA you need approval from the manufacturer for the change.

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1 hour ago, EEProf said:

That said, EKOLOT has a 50 year history of building gliders. They only forayed into the powered aircraft space in the last decade or so. They have a significant amount of experience in building planes that really have no need of a BRS--they will glide, well, like a glider.

The CT also glides well. Gliding well and having a BRS are not mutually exclusive. While most gliders don't have a BRS, many glider pilots wear a parachute while flying their gliders. Besides the parachute can come in handy in situations where gliding isn't possible. 

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11 hours ago, AGLyme said:

Have you flown the CT?  Curious as to the diff. and the variance in offerings.  

I have not and my comment was more of a lament than a criticism. I had two CT's on my list, but flew and bought the Topaz before I could get to them and to be fair it was much newer. FD and EKOLOT produce very similar aircraft and that fact is why this group is so useful to me, I just wish there were more of my own kind 😉

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10 hours ago, Tom Baker said:

For a SLSA any change from how the airplane was delivered from the factory requires approval.

...and here is the rub. The Kaspar Aero MC was in my aircraft from the factory, but is no where in the documentation. The only way I discovered it was a Kaspar and not Beringer was from a sticker on it. 

So let's say someone builds an S-LSA and gets it approved for sale in the US. What document dictates how it "was delivered from the factory"? So when you do maintenance on it you can know what it's configuration was and how to proceed. I just assumed (yeah, I know) that it would all be in the maintenance manual, download it here if you want a look. When you read the manual it looks like it is all there, how to do the condition inspections, change tires, etc. with part numbers of things labelled. But after you get into it you discover that certain things are not discussed at all, important things, like the MC. So now what do you do? That is the question I was asking.

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As far as manuals go , this one is pretty reasonable ...

In my case, when something is not explicitly listed in the manual I basically attempt to follow the spirit if the letter is not available 🙂

In other words, I won’t swap my brakes for something that is not listed in the MEL but I will substitute minor components with something reasonable ... 

 

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12 hours ago, EEProf said:

Frankly, I fail to understand why the Flight Design birds are so popular given the EKOLOT offerings.

Availability and history.  When the CT series came to the USA they already had a bunch of airframes flying in Europe and a good history.  The factory was able to pump out a lot of airframes quickly, so when the LSA rules were first  introduced the Fight Design company was able to quickly capitalize on it.  Plus of all the S-LSA out there, the CT series has the best combination of speed, range, handling, price, and utility IMO.

I see conflicting information on the Topaz's specs depending on where I look.  It looks like with a 100hp Rotax engine the airplane has about 550lb useful load, 26 gallons of fuel, and cruise speed around 110kt.  Is that roughly correct?

Have you considered converting the airplane to E-LSA?  Airframes with low production numbers are particularly suited to conversion, and I think low numbers and potential lack of support were the main reasons the FAA allowed E-LSA conversions in the first place.  My CT was converted a few years ago and it has really made things easier from a maintenance standpoint.

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1 hour ago, EEProf said:

FD and EKOLOT produce very similar aircraft

They do... that’s why I was curious.  At one time the big LSA sellers were CT, Pipistrel and Remos.  But the market, In the USA anyway, didn’t provide enough sales scale to keep those three healthy and to allow others with small marketing budgets like yours to survive.  Remos is gone or almost and it looks like Pipistrel is going upscale competing with Diamond, and FD invested in the next gen with the F2.  That was my analysis 3 years ago and it still stands today.  FD, in spite of its sales success, went bankrupt rolling out the F4.  New FD finally successfully is rolling out a clean sheet design that I hear is selling very well.  Which will keep the brand and spare parts going and going... and keep CT values higher than the others.

I am keeping an eye on the new Texas aircraft LSA, they are trying hard.  

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2 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

Availability and history.  When the CT series came to the USA they already had a bunch of airframes flying in Europe and a good history.  The factory was able to pump out a lot of airframes quickly, so when the LSA rules were first  introduced the Fight Design company was able to quickly capitalize on it.  Plus of all the S-LSA out there, the CT series has the best combination of speed, range, handling, price, and utility IMO.

I see conflicting information on the Topaz's specs depending on where I look.  It looks like with a 100hp Rotax engine the airplane has about 550lb useful load, 26 gallons of fuel, and cruise speed around 110kt.  Is that roughly correct?

Have you considered converting the airplane to E-LSA?  Airframes with low production numbers are particularly suited to conversion, and I think low numbers and potential lack of support were the main reasons the FAA allowed E-LSA conversions in the first place.  My CT was converted a few years ago and it has really made things easier from a maintenance standpoint.

That all makes sense. EKOLOT is its own worst enemy, but they have been in business for 25 years.

Those specs are what I have and am seeing.

I plan to convert (E-LSA) after the next condition inspection, which is what I planned all along, it's just this 'issue' had me wondering what the current rules were. 

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13 hours ago, EEProf said:

...and here is the rub. The Kaspar Aero MC was in my aircraft from the factory, but is no where in the documentation. The only way I discovered it was a Kaspar and not Beringer was from a sticker on it. 

So let's say someone builds an S-LSA and gets it approved for sale in the US. What document dictates how it "was delivered from the factory"? So when you do maintenance on it you can know what it's configuration was and how to proceed. I just assumed (yeah, I know) that it would all be in the maintenance manual, download it here if you want a look. When you read the manual it looks like it is all there, how to do the condition inspections, change tires, etc. with part numbers of things labelled. But after you get into it you discover that certain things are not discussed at all, important things, like the MC. So now what do you do? That is the question I was asking.

The manufacture is task with keeping track of how an airplane is delivered. I found similar issues with a Sting I worked on. There were a couple things and brakes were one of them that was slightly different than what the manual showed. I think sometimes it comes down to what is available when they are building the airframe. It seems that small companies like Ekolot are more prone to issues like this. Early on Flight Design was making frequent changes, but now is faitly standardized.

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10 hours ago, Tom Baker said:

The manufacture is task with keeping track of how an airplane is delivered. I found similar issues with a Sting I worked on. There were a couple things and brakes were one of them that was slightly different than what the manual showed. I think sometimes it comes down to what is available when they are building the airframe. It seems that small companies like Ekolot are more prone to issues like this. Early on Flight Design was making frequent changes, but now is faitly standardized.

This is starting to clarify things. Another issue was a fuel pressure sensor--a picture of it was shown in the manual, but no P/N or anything. I just bought one from EKOLOT and had it shipped over from Poland. That was my first intro into the colossal difference between LSA and Certified. LSA's are pretty loosey-goosey with the documentation.

Your point about what was available at build time is right on and with these aircraft coming out of the former Soviet Bloc apparently anything goes. I don't at all think it is sinister or anything, just loosey-goosey. When you compare a CT or Topaz to their certified equivalent the cost differential is astronomical and that cost is in the certification "process" that basically guarantees that every single part in the aircraft is accounted for. Then there is the debacle called the Skycatcher 😱

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  • 1 year later...

EEProf,

I saw the Ekolot at an airshow near Chicago, I am not a pilot yet but I hope to be.  Getting Sport Pilot training is difficult in central Illinois though.  Can you expand a bit more on your more recent experiences with the Topaz?  Did you go through the course to do your own repair work on the plane? 

Thanks

Nick

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2 hours ago, nick said:

EEProf,

I saw the Ekolot at an airshow near Chicago, I am not a pilot yet but I hope to be.  Getting Sport Pilot training is difficult in central Illinois though.  Can you expand a bit more on your more recent experiences with the Topaz?  Did you go through the course to do your own repair work on the plane? 

Thanks

Nick

You thinking about getting this bird ?
 

69D3DCDC-6F8E-44E5-88F5-25EE6BC7D5E1.png

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On 6/8/2022 at 6:00 PM, Warmi said:

You thinking about getting this bird ?
 

69D3DCDC-6F8E-44E5-88F5-25EE6BC7D5E1.png

 Not exactly that specific plane, but a new one from the factory.  I think that is probably the one I saw though.  It is the first LSA from Europe that I have seen or paid attention to other than the Pipistrel planes.  Information is sort of scarce though, so it would be difficult to make an informed decision.  I am a lot of steps away from buying a plane, though, so I guess it doesn't matter too much.  

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10 minutes ago, nick said:

 Not exactly that specific plane, but a new one from the factory.  I think that is probably the one I saw though.  It is the first LSA from Europe that I have seen or paid attention to other than the Pipistrel planes.  Information is sort of scarce though, so it would be difficult to make an informed decision.  I am a lot of steps away from buying a plane, though, so I guess it doesn't matter too much.  

I was looking at that plane as well - their dealer is here in IL in DeKalb … these planes are actually quite popular in Europe with about 400 or so sold ( or so I was told ) but what worried me is that there are only literally 3 or maybe 4 planes flying in US …

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21 hours ago, Warmi said:

I was looking at that plane as well - their dealer is here in IL in DeKalb … these planes are actually quite popular in Europe with about 400 or so sold ( or so I was told ) but what worried me is that there are only literally 3 or maybe 4 planes flying in US …

I have the same concerns.  It is very difficult to make informed decisions in this category of aircraft.  I think if they want to sell more aircraft the distributors need to concentrate on putting as much information as they can out there so potential buyers can form a plan.  Pilots are naturally planners and the risks are too high to take risks on the unknown.

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Interesting story on one of these birds, and very likely this one as the fella is from IL.  Three years ago I sold a Rans S12 project as flip / part out side hustle, was across border in Canada and a USD smoking deal, but that's a tangent.  The birdcage frame and last of the oddball parts went to a guy in IL, he was busy and after a few weeks he arranged a friend to come pick it up.  This friend bought a Topaz that had a minor landing accident / gear breakage (I know, surprising to happen in a LSA...)  He bought this plane from the insurance company, it was very new and very low hours, and for $20k.  Imported the new gear leg and did minor repair to airframe, and was really enjoying it.  

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