2006 CTSW forced landing after engine failure

[Skunkworks85]

23 hours ago, cdarza said:

Good question.  I really don't know the correct answer however, as of today my decision would be to not pull the chute and i would risk the water landing.     I would gladly listen to opinions on this.      The worry of this water landing is the plane flipping over and/or being knocked unconscious long enough that drowning would be cause of death  

I would think that since you have the benefit of knowing that your most likely outcome is a ditching, I would have a solid, pre-determined set of factors for which option to take.  Make a plan and stick to it. That is generally going to end better than making a decision in a stressful situation. I would pull the chute over water. 

[FastEddieB]

Cirrus on doors:

Door Position
For most situations, it is best to leave the doors latched and use the time available to transmit emergency calls, shut down systems, and get into the Emergency Landing Body Position well before impact. The discussion below gives some specific recommendations, however, the pilot's decision will depend upon all factors, including time to impact, altitude, terrain, winds, condition of airplane, etc.
There is the possibility that one or both doors could jam at impact. If this occurs, to exit the airplane, the occupants will have to force open a partially jammed door or break through a door window using the Emergency Exit Hammer located in the lid of the center armrest. This can significantly delay the occupants from exiting the airplane.
If the pilot elects to touchdown with a door opened, there are several additional factors the pilot must consider: loss of door, possibility of head injury, or injury from an object coming through the open door.

• If a door is open prior to touchdown in a CAPS landing, the door will most likely break away from the airplane at impact.
• If the door is open and the airplane contacts the ground in a rolled condition, an occupant could be thrown forward and strike their head on the exposed door pillar. Contacting the ground in a rolled condition could be caused by terrain that is not level, contacting an obstacle such as a tree, or by transient aircraft attitude.
• With a door open, it is possible for an object such as a tree limb or flying debris to come through the opening and strike an occupant.
• WARNING •
If it is decided to unlatch a door, unlatch one door only. Opening only one door will provide for emergency egress as well as reduce risks associated with ground contact. Typically, this would be the copilot's door as this allows the other occupants to exit first after the airplane comes to rest.
  CAPS Landing Scenario
Door Position
Empty Copilot Seat
Unlatch Copilot Door
Very Little Time Before Impact
Keep Doors Closed
Fire
Unlatch Copilot Door
Water Landing
Unlatch Copilot Door
Condition Unknown
Keep Doors Closed
  

[JLang]

6 hours ago, GrassStripFlyBoy said:

My plan has always been set up into the wind for the flare over the water, and as it stalls about 5' off the deck, I'm bailing out the door, the ditch bag makes a handle with how it folds.  No worse than those water ski wipe outs from my earlier days.  And I'd be picking the bow of a pleasure boat or lake freighter to be pulling this off.  Great Lakes have lots of traffic in summer, and I won't cross them in winter months.

 

I'm surprised that this is a debatable topic, but like others I am very open to other opinions.  Why not pull the chute over water?  Among other numerous positives, I considered the presence of BRS a significant advantage when deciding to get my CTSW, since on occasion I overfly Lake Michigan.  I admit that in my conclusion to pull the chute vs not over water I didn't get much deeper than my belief that it's better to end up right-side-up.  I can imagine scenarios with strong surface winds where the speed over water is less when gliding into the wind than if drifting under chute, but this would certainly not be the majority.  It is true that in water you don't get nearly the energy dissipation from gear collapsing as over land, but with a chute you also don't get the sudden stop-and-flip when ditching, or risk of getting hit by the elevator if bailing out during flare.  For Darrell and others who have concluded that it's better to try to land over water, what factored into that decision?

[FastEddieB]

27 minutes ago, JLang said:

I'm surprised that this is a debatable topic, but like others I am very open to other opinions.  Why not pull the chute over water? 

I think the chute is the best way to go over water, all things considered. 

But part of the energy of a vertical descent under CAPS in a Cirrus is supposed to be absorbed by the gear collapsing up into the wing. You lose that in a water descent, so the g-forces are likely higher on impact.

Interesting case study here:

http://ilanreich.com/Public_Pics/Crash/

On the other hand, I don’t know if other planes are designed similarly, plus many water touchdowns under CAPS have been relative non-events. So there’s that!

[kinoons]

If I was over water I'd definitely go with the chute. Having been turned over and seeing how disorientated I became, I wouldn't want to also have to extricate myself submerged and under less than ideal lighting conditions. 

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

1 hour ago, JLang said:

For Darrell and others who have concluded that it's better to try to land over water, what factored into that decision?

Here's my thoughts:  Under chute the plane will settle mostly straight down into the drink, and you'll be facing water level immediately to some point, maybe a third or more, up the outside of doors.  To open the door against the water will take effort, and might mean keeping your calm to realize you need to flood the cabin to close to the same level so the doors can be opened in neutral state of forces.  Realistically it's probably a dynamic where you're going keep pushing that door open, the water is rapidly pouring in, and it works out, but the point is your not setting nice and pretty, the plane will be sinking quick at first, then once wings are in the drink, then a much slower process.  You also have to manage getting free of belts, headset cables, and anything else that might entangle you. (on that note - this is why I like my center cam lock belts, once you pop it, it's 4 free ends with no loops remaining)  If there is appreciable wave action like the great lakes can be, you'd be getting tossed about in this as well.  We just heard how this forced landing with kinoons lead to not recognizing where the door latch was located, and that is after everything stopped moving, and no water rushing in.

I'm convinced the post ditching event is survivable in the summer months with basic life saving equipment, but that is what gets most people.  Can you imagine getting out of the plane and then treading water, being a needle in the proverbial hay stack?  I'm a fairly nimble athletic person, timing the bail out of the door at the around the stall speed a few feet off does not strike me as bad of option as riding it all the way in, both are tough choices one would have to make.  I'm not suggesting anyone follows my choice in this, but realize either way - you're not staying with plane so I'll just 'step out a bit early'.  And I've thought about this for many years and come back to the same thought, I'm bailing out.  

The first major SAR mission I flew is accounted here:  Missing and Feared Gone - AOPA

Imagine receiving a call that a C-150 went into the middle of Lake Huron, and you're asked to go jump in your C-150 and fly grid patterns for hours on end over the same water looking for him.  Call came in late that day, we called it off at dark.  Did not sleep that night.

 

[Duane Jefts]

BRS landing in the water - I’m unlatching the doors and holding them closed until impact.

[airhound]

Question, how to protect against head/face injuries in a CT? Given, tight cabin headspace and less-than taught seat belts. How’s this for head protection? Short of a helmet, use a small rolled sleeping bag, or a small pillow as a cushion, stowed on an LS hat rack or copilot seat? To be raised in front of face before anticipated impact. 

[cdarza]

1 hour ago, AirHound said:

Question, how to protect against head/face injuries in a CT? Given, tight cabin headspace and less-than taught seat belts. How’s this for head protection? Short of a helmet, use a small rolled sleeping bag, or a small pillow as a cushion, stowed on an LS hat rack or copilot seat? To be raised in front of face before anticipated impact. 

Ive got a nice cushy movable lumbar support that might help a little in this scenario.  

[FlyingMonkey]

4 hours ago, Duane Jefts said:

BRS landing in the water - I’m unlatching the doors and holding them closed until impact.

That makes good sense.  Once the airplane is down you want OUT ASAP.

[FlyingMonkey]

1 hour ago, AirHound said:

Question, how to protect against head/face injuries in a CT? Given, tight cabin headspace and less-than taught seat belts. How’s this for head protection? Short of a helmet, use a small rolled sleeping bag, or a small pillow as a cushion, stowed on an LS hat rack or copilot seat? To be raised in front of face before anticipated impact. 

You only need one hand to fly if the engine is out (not throttle required!)...you could use your free hand to brace your self against the spar carry through to minimize popping into it.  But I think if you make your belts as tight as you can prior to impact (I mean REALLY tight), you probably can't move enough to seriously hurt yourself.  If you can move up/down in your seat, your belts are probably too loose for an off-airport landing (or BRS deployment/landing) -- you want to absolutely minimize your movement.

[kinoons]

I’d be afraid of bracing an arm onto the spar - enough energy in the crash to break your arm, dislocate a shoulder, etc. No doubt you’re going to want your arms if something goes south in the crash. I believe the right answer is very tight harness, a helmet if you’re that concerned. Or some foam padding on the spar.

[Tom Baker]

I know you said that you didn't remember what you hit your head on, but do you remember when you hit your head? Was it injured before you removed your belts? I have heard cases where an airplane is upside down after an accident and the people are injured when the remove the bely and fall getting out of the airplane.

[Runtoeat]

I spent a lot of my summers water skiing on Lake Michigan when young.  I quickly learned to take off and come in on the beach due to the cold water.  The water temp, in the middle of August, averages around 68 F near shoreline and lower towards the middle of the lake.  Survival in this temperature can be from minutes up to 2 hours.   My friend Phil had an extra survival bag called the Land Shark Survival Bag that he gave me.  This is a mylar bag which can be intered and then zipped up and traps water which is then heated by one's body.  It prolongs survival and is orange for emergency responders to hopefully spot.  In addition to a life jacket, I carry this bag whenever I travel across any of the Great Lakes, which is infrequent. FWIW, I will pull my chute and open a door prior to ditching in the water.  For land emergency landings, if no roads are available, I'll pull my chute and keep the doors shut but open the vent window to provide a spot to grab for leverage pushing or pulling on the window/door if it fails to open.  Of course, the whole top of the plane should no longer be there so this is an exit too.

https://southernboating.com/electronics-and-gear/safety-gear/land-shark-instant-survival-shelter-stealth-bag/

[kinoons]

17 hours ago, Tom Baker said:

I know you said that you didn't remember what you hit your head on, but do you remember when you hit your head? Was it injured before you removed your belts? I have heard cases where an airplane is upside down after an accident and the people are injured when the remove the bely and fall getting out of the airplane.

I distinctly remember flipping over, hitting my head, and while I hung there in the seat suspended by my harness, seeing blood drip from my head to the now inverted ceiling of the aircraft, thinking to myself “damn, now I’m going to need staples in my head.”  

[kinoons]

Prelim report is due in about two weeks according to the local FSDO. 
 

From what i can gather from the owner it appears an oil hose was precariously close to the exhaust manifold - close enough to allow the exhaust to “burn” through the hose and cause our oil leak. Hose was last replaced appx 3.5 years ago. 
 

the hose in question ran to the oil pressure solenoid for pressure display on the Dynon EMS. I’m curious - does this solenoid also measure oil temp, or where does that measurement come from?

[Tom Baker]

The oil temp sensor is on the front by the oil filter. As oil quantity is depleted the temperature will go up. The pressure sensor is normally opposite the oil filter, but people often mount it remotely on the firewall below the battery. If not careful the routing can put it close to the exhaust.