Experimental versus S-LSA Insurance Cost

[Isham]

I have considered going ELSA.  The one thing that has stopped me is insurance.  On the last renewal I was told that ELSA insurance would be significantly higher because Flight Design does not build ELSA airplanes.  The insurance agent used Van's RV-12 as a comparison.  The RV-12 ELSA is not higher than a factory RV-12 because they offer the ELSA. 

My question is:  What is your experience on insurance cost on ELSA verses SLSA?

Mine is $1,436.  My hull is covered for $40K.  I fly under sport pilot rules.  I am 70.

[FlyingMonkey]

My insurance did not change one cent when I made the change, and has remained stable in the last 3-4 years my airplane has been ELSA.  Your age will affect your rate far more than going ELSA.  I have a $70k hull value, and my premium this year was $1310, but I'm 54.  All that changes in going to ELSA is who can do the maintenance.  The airplane was still built in a factory under ASTM standards.  You can even make the case that maintenance is done better because the guy doing it will have his butt in the seat in many cases.

Also, any change in premium will be made up for easily by lowered maintenance cost.  I did my rubber change myself the first year I was ELSA, and in that first year I saved over $2500 in total maintenance costs over the year.  I have since removed/replaced my BRS to repack and replace the rocket, and done several other major tasks that I would have otherwise had to pay somebody for.  Going ELSA saves a LOT of money.  

[Madhatter]

Find another insurance company.  Mine didn't change.

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

No change with my SW going from Standard to E-LSA either.  If you'd like try another option, I have used Avinsure Agency, Inc. exclusively since my first bird in 1999.  Very pleased with Candy as the agent.

[Anticept]

I know Candy personally, have for years. Also her husband Jerry (aviation lawyer). Great people.

[Isham]

I am using Aviation Insurance Resources (have for a long time for my Piper 180 and stayed with them when I switched to the CTSW).  I will contact Avinsure Agency Inc and get a quote.

Thank you for the info. 

Maybe others are in this same boat and can save with this discussion.

The other thing that may affect it is our airplane is in our corporation name, not an individual.

[FlyingMonkey]

I use Chris Wolbert at AIR and did not have a change, as I mentioned.  Do you have any aviation insurance claims in your past?

[Anticept]

Regardless of ownership, they will ask who the named pilots will be. That and your policy limits are what sets your rates, not who owns it.

[Isham]

No past claims.  No pilot issues.  Only myself and a local instructor and we are both well qualified.

[sandpiper]

Two years ago insurance for my 2007 CTSW was $1200 for $89K hull. Last year it went to $1700 and this year it's $2100.

My broker is Falcon Insurance. They said three things are affecting my rates:

1) Due to big losses the industry is hardening up. And there are fewer players.

2) Age. I will be 77 this month. The next big hurdle will be when I turn 80. Falcon said they wouldn't drop me but would simply price me out of the market. That is happening to some of my more "senior" neighbors in this airpark. Quotes of $6K for 75K hull have been talked about.

3) They do not like CTSW's. Apparently the CTSW has an accident rate four times that of a C-172. A lot of that is landing/takeoff accidents. Falcon said that for the same hull value my premium for a C-182 would be about half. They also said stay away from tail draggers and retractable. 

 

Several years ago I asked one agency (forget which) what would happen if I changed the CTSW to ELSA. They said they would not cover me. I then asked about an ELSA RV-12. They said "no problem". See the first post above. 

 

 

 

[Isham]

I guess at some point, based on age, I will need to get rid of the airplane or not carry insurance. 

[Warmi]

12 hours ago, sandpiper said:

…..

3) They do not like CTSW's. Apparently the CTSW has an accident rate four times that of a C-172. A lot of that is landing/takeoff accidents. Falcon said that for the same hull value my premium for a C-182 would be about half. They also said stay away from tail draggers and retractable. 

 

Is landing CT planes that much more difficult than other LSAs like RV 12 to warrant this claim ?  I would think this comparison to C172 would hold for all LSAs …

[Madhatter]

There is no question the CT is difficult on the ground, narrow gear, light wing loading, and tendency for the tail to stall in the flare, lots of bent gear. Flight Design has known this for a long time that's why they changed the aerodynamics in the F2. This is what motivated me to correct the flare issue with the vg's. It's a different plane, much more docile on landing. Unfortunately it's ancient history for Flight Design and there will never be an MRA to fix it it can only be done as ELSA. It's still a great plane.

[FlyingMonkey]

I'm wondering how the landing/stall characteristics will change on my CTSW when I change to the e-Prop.  Taking 6-7lb off right at the very nose has to have some effect.

[Madhatter]

None

[Anticept]

Only critical AoA matters when it comes to stalling. If you move weight around, that's not going to really change when a stall speed occurs as long as you are still in the CG range. It can very much affect if you run out of control authority, but if you're still in the CG range, you're not going to see any noticeable change.

[ct9000]

The technical answer is that a lighter prop will move the CG rearward and so lower the stall speed and slightly increase cruise speed.

[Ed Cesnalis]

On 10/1/2021 at 5:10 PM, ct9000 said:

The technical answer is that a lighter prop will move the CG rearward and so lower the stall speed and slightly increase cruise speed.

Corey's right moving the weight doesn't change stall speed.  Moving CG aft does slightly increase cruise because less negative lift is needed from the tail and therefore less lift from the wing and therefore more speed

[CTSW Bob]

My insurance several years ago on my 07 CTSW was $1200/yr.  it has just now gone up to $1850/yr for a hull value of $75k.  Never a claim, VFR rated, and still in the factory certified category.  Starting to get a little pricey, but not carrying insurance is still a bit risky in my eyes.  Self insuring would hurt a lot if I had a big loss, and my city owned hangar requires insurance with them listed on the policy.  Insurance is only expensive until you use it.  Now, if it were in the $5000 range I would either switch planes or just drop coverage to ground only to make the city happy.   Wonder if a higher deductible would lower costs for some of the older pilots?  

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

My policy renewed a week back, it increased about $300 from last year to $1659 on 55k hull, was told carrier revised rates for aircraft on grass fields, and was creatively asked if I keep it at a paved airport for 6 months of the year.  I could have probably played along, but not worth a few hundred dollars.  I quoted three others, all at 55k and my private grass strip, had quotes as high as $2350 (Avemco).

[FastEddieB]

The location of the cg definitely affects the stall speed. 
 

First reference I could find was this from the EAA:

 

[Anticept]

13 hours ago, CTSW Bob said:

My insurance several years ago on my 07 CTSW was $1200/yr.  it has just now gone up to $1850/yr for a hull value of $75k.  Never a claim, VFR rated, and still in the factory certified category.  Starting to get a little pricey, but not carrying insurance is still a bit risky in my eyes.  Self insuring would hurt a lot if I had a big loss, and my city owned hangar requires insurance with them listed on the policy.  Insurance is only expensive until you use it.  Now, if it were in the $5000 range I would either switch planes or just drop coverage to ground only to make the city happy.   Wonder if a higher deductible would lower costs for some of the older pilots?  

I think you got the wrong topic

[FlyingMonkey]

13 hours ago, CTSW Bob said:

My insurance several years ago on my 07 CTSW was $1200/yr.  it has just now gone up to $1850/yr for a hull value of $75k.  Never a claim, VFR rated, and still in the factory certified category.  Starting to get a little pricey, but not carrying insurance is still a bit risky in my eyes.  Self insuring would hurt a lot if I had a big loss, and my city owned hangar requires insurance with them listed on the policy.  Insurance is only expensive until you use it.  Now, if it were in the $5000 range I would either switch planes or just drop coverage to ground only to make the city happy.   Wonder if a higher deductible would lower costs for some of the older pilots?  

How old are you?  It seems that age has more effect on rates than total flight hours of the pilot or other factors.

My rates have held around the $1200-1400 range for at least five years on a $75k hull.  I expect a healthy jump when I hit 60.  In fact I hit 55 this year and it might go up then.

[FlyingMonkey]

On 9/3/2021 at 7:20 PM, sandpiper said:

Several years ago I asked one agency (forget which) what would happen if I changed the CTSW to ELSA. They said they would not cover me. I then asked about an ELSA RV-12. They said "no problem". See the first post above. 

That's odd.  My CTSW insurance stayed exactly the same when I switched to ELSA, and has stayed at that level for 3-4 years.

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

4 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

How old are you?  It seems that age has more effect on rates than total flight hours of the pilot or other factors.

My rates have held around the $1200-1400 range for at least five years on a $75k hull.  I expect a healthy jump when I hit 60.  In fact I hit 55 this year and it might go up then.

50,  The wild card for me is private airfield that is published as less than 2000', grass and short does not enter well into the calculations...