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SW or LS


Junglejett

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1 hour ago, FlyingMonkey said:

I don't mean routine maint, but maint if something breaks or fails.

Again in my experience there is more issues with carbs than the fuel injection. Other than a high fuel pressure issue on one airplane I have not experienced any real fuel system issues with the iS engines. It required an expensive part to fix, but only about twenty minutes. I do have a pile of bad fuel pumps and heavy floats, and have had to send a carb in because the float valve wouldn't seal like it should. I've seen my share of carb issues

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1 hour ago, Tom Baker said:

Again in my experience there is more issues with carbs than the fuel injection. Other than a high fuel pressure issue on one airplane I have not experienced any real fuel system issues with the iS engines. It required an expensive part to fix, but only about twenty minutes. I do have a pile of bad fuel pumps and heavy floats, and have had to send a carb in because the float valve wouldn't seal like it should. I've seen my share of carb issues

That's valid.  My main point was field repairs by the non-Rotax mechanic can be easier with carbs.

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On 2/8/2022 at 10:54 PM, Tom Baker said:

Having owned and flown both, I feel the LS is worth the premium, especially when you get into the second generation LS. As I have stated before I am not a fan of the early LS. Some hilights, IMO the LS flies nicer, it is more stable on the ground, the quarter windows add visibility, the seats are more comfortable, easy in flight accessible storage. There is probably more, but these were off the top of my head.

Access to storage in-flight? Like behind seats?

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7 minutes ago, Jorge E Trevino said:

Access to storage in-flight? Like behind seats?

The CTSW has a bulkhead from floor to ceiling. With the CTLS it goes about half way up with a hat shelf behind both seats. You do have limited access to the baggage compartment form the seat by reaching behind the seat on the opposite side and slipping you hand past the cloth access cover.

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I believe both planes have it, but the CTSW has 2 storage compartments on the floor, one in front of of each stick. Don’t know what you are looking to use them for, but they are surprisingly roomy. I keep tie downs, small wheel chocks, fuel tab, charging cords, rear tie down loop, batteries and other stuff…even a small fire extinguisher in one!

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44 minutes ago, Towner said:

I believe both planes have it, but the CTSW has 2 storage compartments on the floor, one in front of of each stick. Don’t know what you are looking to use them for, but they are surprisingly roomy. I keep tie downs, small wheel chocks, fuel tab, charging cords, rear tie down loop, batteries and other stuff…even a small fire extinguisher in one!

My left side foot well has chocks, tire gauge, fuel tester, PLB, and other various bits.  The right side is my field repair kit with basic tools, multimeter, spare tire tube, etc.

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I am new at this site. I asked the following question in another forum…

I will present it here, and it is for CTLS pilots:

The cruise speed at 75% power is listed at 115 kts, according to FD.

if you are flying at 7000’ MSL, and ASSUMING ZERO WIND, wouldn’t the true speed be 131 kts?

is my math right?

Thanks.

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Your calculations of 7k MSL of 115 CAS = 131 TAS appear correct, but I don't believe a LS is moving along at 115 IAS at 7k.

Having an SW I can't speak for LS, but have seen many here share performance numbers, SW's on average seem to be a bit faster than LS's.  Prop pitch has to be dialed spot on and then it seems SW's are closer to 120 at cruise and LS's 5-10k less, talking ranges based on what people have shared.

Search this forum for "cruise speed" and "prop pitch" and you'll find a lot of info to reference on all types.  CT's are some of the fastest LSA's around, but speed varies a lot by model, prop type, pitch setting, and how hard one pushes the RPM.

 

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Additional thoughts based on experience:

1. If you know your mission! may have missed it, but as basic as it sounds, get some time in either CT. Get enough dual and take the airplane and you through the paces to see if you remain positive about acquiring either.
2. about ELSA. Is insurance obtainable, already high, maybe higher for ELSA. Need it more for composite repairs than engine, however for engine maintenance move near Tom, Roger, Leaf etc for iS. 
3. ELSA = aluminum. RV12ELSA for self-help…good airframe, great parts support. CT is prettier if you can support it.

4. wonder how the European mess impacts FD critical parts supply? OST etc?  Or are they here in abundance?

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50 minutes ago, airhound said:

Is insurance obtainable, already high, maybe higher for ELSA

Last Sept I was quoted $1050 for my SW which is E-LSA, providing I kept it at the county airport which is paved and over 2k'.  I pay $300 more to base at my private short grass strip.  There is zero difference for insurance cost being E v/s S category.

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On 2/24/2022 at 5:36 PM, GrassStripFlyBoy said:

Your calculations of 7k MSL of 115 CAS = 131 TAS appear correct, but I don't believe a LS is moving along at 115 IAS at 7k.

Having an SW I can't speak for LS, but have seen many here share performance numbers, SW's on average seem to be a bit faster than LS's.  Prop pitch has to be dialed spot on and then it seems SW's are closer to 120 at cruise and LS's 5-10k less, talking ranges based on what people have shared.

Search this forum for "cruise speed" and "prop pitch" and you'll find a lot of info to reference on all types.  CT's are some of the fastest LSA's around, but speed varies a lot by model, prop type, pitch setting, and how hard one pushes the RPM.

 

So what are typical TAS at cruise for a CTLS and a CTSW?

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I plan 117k for cross country flights.  I also don't focus much on TAS, sure - if you climb to 10k' that might achieve the best TAS but it also takes time to climb and winds aloft might be worth it, or might be a major penalty.  I pay a whole lot of attention the wind direction and speeds at altitudes, if you're looking for the best performance that is the primary driver, winds generally are a far bigger influence in your rate of travel than the gain in TAS due to elevation.

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8 hours ago, Jorge E Trevino said:

So what are typical TAS at cruise for a CTLS and a CTSW?

I can't speak for the LS, but my CTSW has the smaller gear and I have historically cruised at 127 KTAS at 5500ft and 5400rpm.  I recently changed to an e-Props propeller, and have not had enough experience on long flights to get a perfect picture, but I appear to cruise at 131-132 KTAS now at the same rpm and altitude.

 

Another note about the CTs is that, like most LSA, they are not the easiest airplanes to learn to land.  They have low inertia and their light weight makes them a bit of a handful in high winds.  I believe the LS is a little better in overall handling, at the cost of increase weight (and maybe slightly lower speed as Darrell mentioned, but not sure on that).  You get used to the characteristics like any airplane, but as a low time pilot I admit I struggled with it a bit in the beginning.  But now almost nine years later (has it been that long?!?) I am very confident with the airplane and have made landings in some very challenging conditions.  So far I have not bent anything on the airplane.  But you do have to respect it and pay attention to the weather conditions.  

 

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Thanks Darrell, Andy and Tom for your insight.

Our mission (wife and I) is cross-country travel, 500 miles segments at a time. At 115 knots it would be around 3 3/4 hours flying time.

So far a CTLS looks a very good option, even with a UL of just 550 lbs (1320-770), the math will be a little tight but still doable… I think.

Wife and I weight 350 + 150 (25 gal of fuel) + up to 50 luggage = 550 lbs.

25 gallons at 5 gal/hr should give us approx. 5 hrs of flight time, which will leave us with 1.25 hrs of reserve fuel.

Do my numbers sound right?

Regards.

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Big picture, sure.  But there are always little things that add in, ADS-B or other equipment added, headsets, I-pad and mounts, flight gear, those add to factory W&B.  I wouldn't travel without a few basic hand tools and spare tubes (I often frequent the lonely & low traffic airports).  That 50 lbs of baggage is down to 40 or less quickly.

500 mile hops are very doable IF you're hitting ground speed, that is trekking trips like Detroit to Atlanta.  Which keying into Skyvector a moment ago showed 4:20 DTW to ATL at 7k and 117k, and just under 5 hours for the return flight. 

With the mission of cross country the CT is the best LSA option available.  When I bought my bird in Tulsa the return flight had very strong tail winds, I could have made 755 miles non stop (full fuel / solo), but made a stop in IN for bio break at 3.5 hour mark, and didn't want to push fuel still learning the airplane and performance.  If I was flying the return route one would be only going 350 miles into that wind.

 

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9 hours ago, Jorge E Trevino said:

Thanks Darrell, Andy and Tom for your insight.

Our mission (wife and I) is cross-country travel, 500 miles segments at a time. At 115 knots it would be around 3 3/4 hours flying time.

So far a CTLS looks a very good option, even with a UL of just 550 lbs (1320-770), the math will be a little tight but still doable… I think.

Wife and I weight 350 + 150 (25 gal of fuel) + up to 50 luggage = 550 lbs.

25 gallons at 5 gal/hr should give us approx. 5 hrs of flight time, which will leave us with 1.25 hrs of reserve fuel.

Do my numbers sound right?

Regards.

You are certainly in the ballpark.  I'm not sure how many LS out there have a 550lb useful load, but I'm sure some do.  The earlier model airplanes of all CT stripes tend to be the lightest.  A 2005 CTSW is generally lighter than a 2007, and the same for a 2008 CTLS vs a 2012 model.

Your 25lb fuel gives you a little wiggle room, you can always go to 20 gallons and gain 30lb if you need to.  As Darrell said, your airplane will tend to collect a million items over time; I probably keep 25lb of "stuff" in my airplane all the time between tie downs & anchors, a quart of oil, chocks, GoPro mounts, field repair tools, blah blah blah.  You probably don't really need all that, but some of it is like a woobie blanket and gives a warm fuzzy feeling.  :D

I usually flight plan for 110kt and my trips rarely take longer than I plan.  You can do some amazing long legs in a CT, 500mi is a doable number, but most of my legs tend to be 350-400 miles when I'm doing long trips.  At that 2.5 - 3.5 hour mark I'm ready to stretch for a few minutes (my spine isn't the best).  And fuel stops are not really a big deal, if you are motivated you can land and flip a CT back into the air in about 10-15 minutes even at unfamiliar airports, I have done that to beat weather or darkness.

Another thing to be aware of if you are flying VFR is that the best laid plans can and do go awry.  Never plan a flight where you have to make it, like to a wedding, funeral, or business meeting.  If you "gotta get there" then drive or fly commercial.  VFR flights are not highly reliable, as weather will always try to thwart you, and the chances for bad weather go up proportionally to how important the flight is to you.  That is just science.  🤪

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I've taken quite a few long cross country trips and have found that my wife is not interested in sitting in the plane for longer than 3 hours per leg.  I now plan for 2-2.5 hour legs and she is much happier.  Since we usually fly between 5k and 8k it doesn't take much time to drop down for a quick pit stop.

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Four hour flights are pretty long in a small airplane. Probably not bad in the back of a King Air or small jet, but can get uncomfortable in a small plane. Making a 20 minute stop can really make a positive difference. I’ve flown a number of 4+ hour legs while solo, but that’s asking a lot from my wife. She has done a few long legs with me when we were younger, but now I would just make the stop for our comfort. That’s not just in a CT, but any small plane.

As mentioned above, weather can make a big difference too. I’ve had to cancel a few trips due to weather, and have also had to land short of my destination and spend a night to wait out weather. Airplanes are awesome traveling tools, but do have compromises. 
 

I do find I’m less fatigued after flying though. I don’t have to keep my airplane between two lines on the road, constantly watch for brake lights on the car in front of me, and monitor my speed. On a vfr trip outside of controlled airspace, point the airplane in the general direction and altitude and go! If you drift a mile to the left, who cares? It’s not like keeping a car inside the lines 3 feet left and right of your car. Even better, turn on the autopilot ( a must for regular long trips). Controlled airspace can be a little busier, but it’s normally just a small portion of a long trip, if any. Even if the trip has a fairly straight road with little traffic, I still cut the travel time in half in a CT, often much better.

Some may not like my comment about drifting a mile off our route, but if there isn’t any airspace, terrain or other issues, and we still monitor where we are, most of us are probably ok with it. I find myself doing it for sight seeing anyway.

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It seems like I would have to get on a diet and loose a few pound. My wife doesn’t know the words “travel light”. That’s why I figured 50 lbs of luggage was sufficient… however I did not consider the extra equipment/ supplies needed for cross country travel… I would hate to cut on fuel…

Anyway., thanks for all of your tips.

Does anybody know someone that owns a CTLS in the DFW area? Willing to show it? We would really like to see one in person. We already had a chance to see a CTSW…

Thanks and best regards.

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45 minutes ago, Jorge E Trevino said:

Wow, you averaged almost 120 kits/hr. Did you have wind behind?
thks.

I seem to recall pretty neutral winds, maybe a slight tailwind.  But I was trying to beat weather pushing into Georgia, so I had the engine at 5500rpm the entire time.   :)

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