MOSAIC Announcement consequences

[Anticept]

Honestly, I think one of the best places to assess benefits and drawbacks of various approaches to medical certification, in addition to accident studies, would be the underwriting departments of the insurance companies.

[FlyingMonkey]

10 hours ago, Anticept said:

Honestly, I think one of the best places to assess benefits and drawbacks of various approaches to medical certification, in addition to accident studies, would be the underwriting departments of the insurance companies.

That is certainly one source of info that should be considered, I agree!

[Chappy]

Today is July 1 2022, Is there any insight as to what Mosaic will prompt FAA to release as a NOTAM regarding LSA’s?

[tevbax]

37 minutes ago, Chappy said:

Today is July 1 2022, Is there any insight as to what Mosaic will prompt FAA to release as a NOTAM regarding LSA’s?

In my opinion, this can go one of two ways. 
1 - Announcement from Mr. Dan Johnson on status

2 - We piss in the wind for another year/ two/ five due to COVID 

3 - I THINK there is a timeline out there somewhere..... but future regulations could be severely anemic due to the past couple years. 

Im leaning towards #2 and #3

[Towner]

Regarding Mosaic and the safety of those on the ground, I read an interesting article in EAA’s Sport Aviation magazine today. It was written by Tom Carpenter.

It stated during the last 10 years, off airport GA accidents have fatally injured people on the ground at a rate of 2 per year. Fatal lightning strikes are 10 times as common. 5,500 pedestrians are killed by motor vehicles per year. 
 

The low numbers for the on ground deaths due to GA accidents is surprising to me and makes me wonder why GA gets such a bad rap?

Anyway, I think the numbers are supportive of allowing sport pilots, without medicals, to fly slightly larger airplanes without endangering those on the ground. The sport pilots are already flying, now it would be just a little bigger plane. Of course, this does not address the issue of putting additional people in danger by having more people in the airplane, but I just thought it was interesting regarding fatalities to those on the ground.

Either way, I’m curious to see if we hear any updates during Oshkosh next week. Wish I was there!

[Towner]

Well, from what I’ve read so far, looks like we aren’t gonna get a MOSAIC update during Oshkosh. I’m not really surprised.

Thats ok, I’ve fallen in love with my CT over the last 2 years!

[FlyingMonkey]

Bummer about nothing during OSH.  But no problem, like Towner I'm already a happy flyer!

[Towner]

I always wanted a jet! That looks pretty cool!

[FlyingMonkey]

On 7/21/2022 at 10:26 PM, Towner said:

Of course, this does not address the issue of putting additional people in danger by having more people in the airplane, but I just thought it was interesting regarding fatalities to those on the ground.

I'd be okay with larger airplanes, but still limited to a single passenger.  That fits my mission just fine.

Though at this point I don't really have a desire for anything other than my CTSW.  Night flight is really what I'd like, to be able to not have to chase the sun to turn into a pumpkin.

[Towner]

8 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

I'd be okay with larger airplanes, but still limited to a single passenger.  That fits my mission just fine.

Though at this point I don't really have a desire for anything other than my CTSW.  Night flight is really what I'd like, to be able to not have to chase the sun to turn into a pumpkin.

Having a 3 person family, I could certainly use another seat. Had to drive into Southern California (LA) this weekend. What should be a 3:45 drive was about 5:30 both ways due to traffic. This is pretty normal now.  Flying would have been about 1:45. Had to drive because all 3 of us went.

As far as night flight, I agree it would be a nice benefit. I love flying at night and it gives you more options to avoid weather, density issues and timing on trips. Make it an additional endorsement, but make it an option.

Even though we both want it, I’m not sure we are gonna get that one. Even though I’m comfortable flying at night, I have to admit that having a parachute, especially over some of our high western terrain, would be an added comfort! Longer cross country flights around here, in almost any direction, requires going over some pretty high stuff. Local flights are over terrain as flat as you can find anywhere.

250 hours flying as a sport pilot instead of a private, and I haven’t fudged on night flying, but I miss it.

I love my CTSW, but if I had the option,  I’d have to switch to a 4 seat plane. If they offer faster, heavier planes, but still only 2 seats (or only 1 passenger regardless of seats), I’ll keep the CTSW and be very happy! 

[FlyingMonkey]

17 hours ago, Towner said:

As far as night flight, I agree it would be a nice benefit. I love flying at night and it gives you more options to avoid weather, density issues and timing on trips. Make it an additional endorsement, but make it an option.

Even though we both want it, I’m not sure we are gonna get that one.

What annoys me is the FAA inconsistency.  You can fly without a medical, but first you have to have a medical.  Those without a medical can fly at night, but not if they are Sport Pilots.  It gets to a silly stage at some point, some Rube Goldberg version of Bureaucratic reality.

Most people don't realize that to pass a Sport Pilot written & checkride, the pilot has to complete all the same knowledge & tasks as on a Private Pilot written & checkride, except for radio navigation.

This is why I've said for years that the third class medical should just go away, and they should stop accepting new Sport Pilots.  Let the existing ones stay in place if they want (like Recreational Pilots), but if they want PP privileges they take a new checkride.

I know some disagree, YMMV.

[Towner]

5 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

What annoys me is the FAA inconsistency.  You can fly without a medical, but first you have to have a medical.  Those without a medical can fly at night, but not if they are Sport Pilots.  It gets to a silly stage at some point, some Rube Goldberg version of Bureaucratic reality.

Most people don't realize that to pass a Sport Pilot written & checkride, the pilot has to complete all the same knowledge & tasks as on a Private Pilot written & checkride, except for radio navigation.

This is why I've said for years that the third class medical should just go away, and they should stop accepting new Sport Pilots.  Let the existing ones stay in place if they want (like Recreational Pilots), but if they want PP privileges they take a new checkride.

I know some disagree, YMMV.

I agree for the most part. I would like to see them continue with the sport pilot rating just so people can get flying for less money. But, like you said, it is so similar to a ppl, how do they justify allowing someone to fly in similar situations with only half the hours? I started out with a ppl, so it’s hard for me to critique the spl without having done the training. Still, earning a ppl is to expensive for so many that want to learn.

Also, I’d love to see sport pilots have more options for planes with increased speed and weight, but I’d be ok if there was still some kind of limit there. A 180hp Cherokee or a Grumman Tiger seems more than reasonable, but maybe not a 180kt Cirrus. Maybe just no high performance or complex planes. My old Cherokee 140 could not perform nearly as well as my CTSW, so why not let a sport pilot fly them?
 

Again, it’s hard to say since I didn’t start out as a sport pilot. Even after I got my ppl, I was still scared of radio work, busy airspace and trying to taxi around large airports. A sport pilot with only half the training hours maybe more overwhelmed. But, sport pilots who learned in busy environments are probably a lot more comfortable with it than I was as a ppl who learned in the middle of nowhere.

I also don’t understand stuff like the altitude restrictions. Why 10k feet? Why not just use the ppl oxygen altitudes? Also, 10k feet or 2k feet agl. If I’m going over a 9000 ft mountain, I would like to have more than a 2k foot clearance.

Anyway, I agree with you that I’d like to see them allow a driver’s license for medical for private pilots. I don’t think medicals are causing accidents. They already have endorsements for sport pilots, why not allow more endorsements for night, heavier or faster planes, higher altitudes etc. Some of the limitations just don’t make sense to me.

I agree that some won’t agree, and that’s ok. 

 

[tevbax]

Latest From Dan Johnson

Well, here's to another year of waiting.

[tevbax]

On 8/3/2022 at 4:20 PM, Towner said:

...A sport pilot with only half the training hours maybe more overwhelmed. But, sport pilots who learned in busy environments are probably a lot more comfortable with it than I was as a ppl who learned in the middle of nowhere.

I also don’t understand stuff like the altitude restrictions. Why 10k feet? Why not just use the ppl oxygen altitudes? Also, 10k feet or 2k feet agl. If I’m going over a 9000 ft mountain, I would like to have more than a 2k foot clearance.

Anyway, I agree with you that I’d like to see them allow a driver’s license for medical for private pilots. I don’t think medicals are causing accidents. They already have endorsements for sport pilots, why not allow more endorsements for night, heavier or faster planes, higher altitudes etc. Some of the limitations just don’t make sense to me.

 

 

Here's my take on this.

20 hours of training. Yeah, no one is doing a zero to SPT in 20 hours. Personally, I would have been done with SPT a LOT earlier if I would have had something easy to land (I started in a CTLS). My CFI's along the way drilled me on radio comms, flying into congested airspace, and knowing that I was going to spend a lot of time in these areas, always asked for something more difficult. Even though it was not required under SPT, my CFI still ran some hood time with me so I had a clear idea of what to do if I really messed up. This like of "20 hours, you're barely a pilot" kills me. Ground ops - I use Foreflight with location mapping. It makes larger airports a breeze. 

Endorsements - I firmly believe that the DL medical should extend to anything that requires a 3rd class. Right now, I can go rent a 26' box truck, load it with my entire house, add a car, and put my family in the cab to go down the highway. You can't even begin to tell me that is less dangerous than aircraft operations. If something were to happen to me while in that truck, im sure I would cause a LOT more damage to people/ places than a single engine plane would. I believe the medical system is archaic, and in todays society, borderline discriminates against people that seek help to feel better. Honestly, it scares me how many pilots out there have stated they will not see a doctor because they will lose their medical. Now, who's worse here? The ATP that won't see a doctor for mental health issues or the guy flying a SEL on his drivers license that has sleep apnea? 

10k ft? I think they did that just to keep LS out and away from bigger and faster aircraft. Even though the CT is fast for a LS, it's still slow compared to jet aircraft and others shuffling above us. 

Just my thoughts. Not trying to be the "woke" guy by any means, but the FAA really needs to step up its game and get with the times. 








 

[Towner]

Sometimes I don’t explain myself well, but I pretty much agree with you 100%. I realize people don’t get a Sport pilot license in the minimum of 20 hours, but people don’t get a ppl in the minimum of 40 hours either. Again, I haven’t been through sport pilot training, so it’s hard for me to judge, but I’m guessing sport pilot still takes in the area of 50% of the time to get a ppl. Even so, I really like the idea of allowing more options for sport pilots, such as night flight, with the proper endorsements.
 

I’m not sure where you are based out of, but here out west, 10k limits can be a real hindrance to travel. Going over 10k, I would just like to have a little more than 2k feet, even if it’s only for 15 minutes, to clear some high terrain. Below 15k, I’ve never had any issues with other planes, except when I called the F35 and F16 insight and they gave me a personal show! It was awesome!

As far as radio and controlled airspace, we just don’t have any around here, except Fresno, for training. Even then, Fresno is really simple. Like I said, I’m sure if you train in one of the SoCal airports under the LAX class B, you probably feel pretty good about it as soon as you get your license. I actually had a good friend learn here, then buy a Musketeer. He made a few trips to SoCal with more experienced pilots, but finally tried it on his own (pre foreflight). He was so overwhelmed with the radio and airspace, he scared himself and quit flying. I know I was scared to death my first few times solo in really busy airspace cause I didn’t have any experience with it. Thankfully, it’s routine now.

I agree with your thoughts on the medical system too. Most of us probably know somebody with a medical that we question whether they should be flying or not. We all probably know somebody that doesn’t have a medical, but still flys, even if we aren’t aware of their medical status. I stated earlier that maybe we should limit sport pilots to no complex or high performance planes. I think I was just trying to find a middle ground. I guess what I would really like to see is a standard ppl with a driver’s license medical, but keep some kind of sport pilot rating just so people can begin flying on their own for less training expense. The recreational pilot certificate seems like a waste of time. I would love to see the driver’s license medical for both spl and ppl certificates, but that’s probably asking for too much, so I’ll take any improvements that I can get.

I quit flying for a few years b4 ForeFlight and similar programs were readily available. I can’t believe how much it has changed flying for me. The moving map is light years ahead of paper charts, but just having everything available at the push of a button is amazing. I have an iPad, iPhone, and two gps’s in the panel. As long as the satellites don’t quit on me, I’m pretty comfortable without charts now.

Sadly, we are going to have to wait to hear something. Even if it all stays the same, it would be nice to know.

[tevbax]

39 minutes ago, Towner said:

I’m not sure where you are based out of, but here out west, 10k limits can be a real hindrance to travel.

Wisconsin. I did my primary training around MKE and ORD. We have plenty of towered airports over here that are small enough to not overwhelm you when you start training. Currently, I live about 30 mins from OSH. 

I wouldn't mind seeing the endorsement thing become a reality. Want night flight? Endorsement. Want retract? Endorsement. Need several endorsements to take more than one pax? Sure, im in. Give the SPT a fighting chance to rank their way up instead of being buried under a sea of bureaucracy. 

I have a 496 in the panel that is essentially ignored, as my ipad sits to the left of my EFIS. If that fails, I have the same thing on my phone. I make it a point to keep my eyes outside of the plane, and use FF as a reference - not as a crutch. But man, when you fly into a place for the first time and the moving map pops up with your location..... it's perfect. 

 

[Warmi]

Sport pilot is more like 90% of private ticket training - I made a mistake opting out for SP only ,should have taken the advice of my CFI to go for PP with just a few more hours and few additional trivial topics ( alas I did not want to bother with medical ) 

The bottom line is that if you are learning to fly, the hard part is actually learning to fly - landings , making sure you are not behind the plane, all that stuff  - people fail or succeed based on that rather than frankly entirely peripheral differences between SP and PP.

[Towner]

That’s what I kinda wondered about sport pilot training. You really do get 90% of the privileges of a ppl, but how do they do it in minimum training time that is half of a ppl minimum training time? Made no sense to me, but your comments kinda confirm it doesn’t work out that way.

[Anticept]

The FAA, when making the sport pilot certificate, took off the stuff like instrument hours (3 hrs), night flying hours (3 hrs), shorter cross country training time, shorter cross country, 5 instead of 10 hours of total solo (and removal of the minimum number of cross country hours) and a couple other things, added the estimated time all up and removed removed those hours from private to get 20. Nothing more, nothing less. Source: Edsel Ford

The removal of the cursory instrument training requirement is actually a big one. Mainly that focuses on just getting a person to be able to get back out of accidental IMC, and there's a reason why you get a significant reduction in insurance rates when you hold an instrument rating. Accidental IMC is a major killing factor of inexperienced pilots.

Finally, let's not forget that what a light sport airplane is now, is not originally what was envisioned. It was originally imagined to be super simple aircraft, think J3 and Aeronca Champ simple.

Anyways, on those personal views: having worked with various people before AND after my flight instructor ratings: Private pilot training and testing is often woefully insufficient as well. Just can't test for every situation, and it would be unreasonable to ask it.

That's where the endorsement system works well. Private pilot is a good *foundation*, just like schooling for an A&P. But there's so much more to learn, so cut it up into endorsements and additional training specifically geared towards what is going to be encountered. I'd be game for merging together the sport, recreational, and private into one rating, and the minimum testing bar can bet set to the sport level. Want to fly in bravo airspace? Endorsement. Want to fly in Delta or Charlie? Endorsement (if you get bravo, you get delta and charlie too). Flight over the top? Endorsement, involving some instrument and weather training. Flight at night? Endorsement.

Essentially, build your own license, you get the basics to start, add on more training for the tasks you are trying to aim for.

If you've already have the experience requirements in these endorsement areas, then you don't need one, it counts already.

[Towner]

Reading through the SP training requirements, that makes sense. The FAA just wasn’t expecting long cross country flights and CT performance.

I like your idea of merging it all into one and adding endorsements. It will allow people to learn basics for a more reasonable cost, but add on if they wish. It’s probably the best overall solution.

I agree that getting a ppl can leave a new pilot lacking. That’s kinda how I felt about busy airspace, radios and even weather when I got my ticket. Maybe by making certain areas an add on endorsement, a little more focus and time can be spent to address these areas. You can also pick your endorsement area to address what is most important to you.

Great comments. Thanks for the input. 

[Towner]

Went for a short flight today and when I was parking the plane, I had 2 separate guys come ask about it. Both were private pilots.

One was an older gentleman who currently flys a Bonanza. Said he was looking for something more economical, but I think there was something more there, like maybe medical.

The second was a Naval Flight Surgeon a couple years from Navy retirement. He wants to get something affordable to build time in because he’s looking at flying for a second career. He had been looking at a luscombe with 150 hp stuffed into it. Was gonna buy it until he realized it only had a 400 useful load.

It was kinda surprising how little both knew about light sport aircraft and the sport pilots license. In the end, I think they were both pretty impressed with the plane and light sport in general to fill their needs.

Its a shame more people don’t know about LSA’s. They are a great option for so many. I missed a lot of years of flying because I didn’t know much about them either. Even if you don’t need the title of LSA, there just isn’t anything as capable and economical.

[Warmi]

Let’s see ..

3 instrument training hours - probably the most consequential but ultimately irrelevant as well because , unless PP holder continues with his IFR ticket and stays current, these 3 hours will make no difference one year down the road if both SP or PP get into some kind of accidental IMC. A decent auto-pilot represents much better safety margin for a VFR pilot than long forgotten 3 instrument hours X years ago.

- 3 hours night flying - similar as above

- 5 hours total solo - irrelevant as pretty much everybody requires more than 10 hours anyway

- longer cross country solo - about 40 minutes longer in the air …hmm,  really ? 2 weeks after getting my ticket I will have more cross country time than that.

In other words the whole idea of SP specific training is just there to justify having separate sport pilot certificate and the only truly meaningful difference is lack of medical - as far as skills , both freshly minted SP and PP certificate holders are just as skilled ( or just as clueless ) when they start out and will have to learn “on the job”

[Towner]

Are they still spending a lot of time on pilotage and dead reckoning for cross country training, or are they pushing towards more modern methods?

[Warmi]

I had my check-ride 5 years ago and while during training it was all about dead recking/pilotage, during my check-ride my DPE simply told me something like “forget that paper flight plan and just fly like you would if I wasn’t here “ … which I did with my iPad and Garmin Pilot

He was a retired airline pilot in his late 60s….

[Jim Meade]

A retired airline pilot has virtually no knowledge of VFR flying and I don't doubt a bit he rejects pilotage and dead reckoning.  He is not doing a service to the Sport Pilot who flies LSA like a Cub, Champ or such.