Roger Lee Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 Please take note that the document attached below is the latest revision #4 as of 6-6-11 Hi All, The Sensenich 68", 3 blade prop has been approved by FD Germany and will be installed on new CT's. It will also have to have a $52 installation kit made just for the CT. Here is the installation instructions and model number especially for the CT hub and spinner. For now you will need to file an individual LOA. Hopefully FD will put out a fleet approval before too long. You can call me and can get details and a fair price. I am now a Sensenich dealer. p.s. FD will not approve any more Warp Drive props. 3B0R5-FD Installation Instructions Rev0-4.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoastoz Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 Hi All, The Sensenich 68", 3 blade prop has been approved by FD Germany and will be installed on new CT's. It will also have to have a $52 installation kit made just for the CT. Here is the installation instructions and model number especially for the CT hub and spinner. For now you will need to file an individual LOA. Hopefully FD will put out a fleet approval before too long. You can call me and can get details and a fair price. I am now a Sensenich dealer. p.s. FD will not approve any more Warp Drive props. Nice looking propeller...hope they get around to making an in flight variable pitch model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 Roger, I'm a little confused. Until I saw your note here regarding Sensenich propellors, postings and comments indicated to me that Warp Drive was the preferred propellor, should replacement of our factory propellor be required. Now, it appears that FD has pulled their authorization for the Warp Drive and is now supporting installation of the Sensenich instead? Anything you can share with us regarding this change by FD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 Warp was a long time option, but FD wanting to become a more certified aircraft company needed to do more required testing and instead of spending the money on a Warp to do the testing they made a complete change and they are going to Sensenich and away from Neuform and Warp. The Neuform was a 65" prop and the Warp a 66". The new Sensenich is 68". way actually may see some more performance here. believe me when I say I tried long and hard with everyone to keep the Warp as an option, but it was out of my hands. The decision was made by the people at the top in Germany. FD USA is in the process of becoming a Neuform inspection center so hopefully when your Neuform needs inspection it might be a tad cheaper and quicker being here in the US. I don't thing FD is fully up to speed on Neuform inspection and repair yet, but should be by the end of the month. The Sensenich will be a good prop and will cost in the $2000 range. Hopefully with FD doing the inspections the cost will be down to be comparable to a new Warp. It's a wait and see right now. I'll try to stay on top of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 Hi Roger. An interesting story and thanks for the info. I looked at the Sensenich link you supplied. Didn't spend much time reading but it appears that setting the pitch on a Sensenich might be done by running each prop up to a "stop" that is made by using pitch gages? If so, seems like this is a much easier and more accurate method than guessing where the bubble is at on the pitch fixture that is used with the Neuform and Warp Drive props. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 Sounds more like politics to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 I don't think it was politics as much as money and trying to consolidate to one item. FD has been consolidating ideas and parts since 2005. The Sensenich prop can be set just like the others with a bubble level. They supply a pin gauge, but it can be set either way. Personally I like the way I do it with a digital level and the protractor level. I can set them dead on by as little as .25 degrees. If you don't like where they have their pin system set then what would you do? being fancy only goes so far, mastering the basics can take you all the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlfpckrs Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 So they went with an option that's more than twice as expensive as one that many of our owners already had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 The Neuform is a $2300-$2400 prop. The Warp Drive as right at $950 and the Sensenich should be right around $2000 or so. I think FD USA will do the Neuform inspections for what a Warp might cost. The Sensenich is a good prop and can be purchased here in the states like the Warp. It comes out of FL. With the extra 3" or prop (Neuform 65" and the Sensenich at 68") you may get a little better performance. Truth be told I have not tried one of these new 68" Sensenich props. The Neuform is the most expensive to purchase and complicated as far as getting an inspection overseas. Hopefully FD should be up and running on Neuform inspections by the end of the month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC Bill Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 Does the Neuform prop require any maintenance or inspection prior to overhaul. And BTW what currently is TBO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanik Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 I would expect my dealer to be able to demonstrate the product to me and make well informed comparisons to the other props. So I fully expect to see Roger at Page with a shiney new Sensenich, not that iffy warp thing. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 The Sensenich is a good prop, but I'm having a problem with a 68" prop. That puts it really too low to the ground and it will pick up dirt, rocks, sand and weed whack any longer grass or bush growth. A 66" would be much better. My Warp is 66" and I measured out the extra distance today and a few other CTer's came around and we all feel 68" is too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanik Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 But you can order it trimmed down to 66. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 Hi Kurt, Yes Sensenich can sell you a 66" prop, but you can't put it on a CT because FD so far is only authorizing the 68". If your CT were an ELSA then yes you could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 I agree ..the 68'' is too much but..it is 1½'' lower that the 65'' (the 3'' is in the diameter) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 I have the tundra gear so the reduction of ground clearance by 1-1/2" vs my neuform doesn't seem to be that big of a deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 Hi John, It isn't a big deal, but it is significant. It puts it close enough to pick up debris off the runway. It might not at idle, but it will at higher rpms. Maybe CT4ME will chime in here and let people know what a little bit of runway debris can really do and it only takes a second. If you don't have to put your equipment at risk why do it. It won't be covered under any warranty it will come out of your pocket for repairs or replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 Does the Neuform prop require any maintenance or inspection prior to overhaul. And BTW what currently is TBO? Bill, there is a 1000 hour inspection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT4ME Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 Maybe CT4ME will chime in here and let people know what a little bit of runway debris can really do and it only takes a second. Yup.... 'chewed my Neuform up pretty good just taking off (no runup) on some soft sand in Mexico.... being soft, the wheel maybe sunk in an inch or two, couple that with a bit of mounding for the un-even ground... and I got bit. Pitted the front wheel pant, too. I can only imagine it would have been worse if the prop was 1.5 inches closer to the ground. I have tundra and brand new Monster treads... Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted June 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2011 FYI, FD USA is now approved and setup to inspect your Neuform prop. With normal UPS and Fedex shipping times of 4-5 days coming and going and a week at FD you need to plan your prop inspection. Not many maint. shops can keep a plane just sitting for up to 3 weeks. You need to disassembly the prop, send back hub and blades. You can minimize your down time by sending it back UPS or Fedex 2 day service and requesting the same for the return. That would be approximately a down time of 7-9 days. Extra repairs like leading edge issues or even the linear cracks in the blades can now be fixed. If you need additional info you need to call FD USA. TEL. 860-963-7272 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanik Posted July 29, 2011 Report Share Posted July 29, 2011 If you start doing some calculations, http://web.mit.edu/16.unified/www/SPRING/propulsion/UnifiedPropulsion7/UnifiedPropulsion7.htm http://www.epi-eng.com/propeller_technology/selecting_a_propeller.htm you can figure out that we run around 0.9 to 1.0 for advance ratio since the Rotax spins at ~2400 WOT. That should be a pitch in the 20-25deg range which is right. I have my doubts about the epi website's rule of thumb since it recommends 69" for the 2-blade and 57" for the 3 blade which would certainly be too short. Sticking with figure 7.7 from the MIT lecture (McCormack 1979) seems to be a better approach. There you can infer that what one should really be aiming for is a prop pitch angle of 22-24deg. The 2 vs 3 blade is not relevant to this graph but with 3 blades you tend towards more shallow pitch as there are more blades to absorb the power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knolde Posted August 5, 2011 Report Share Posted August 5, 2011 Yup.... 'chewed my Neuform up pretty good just taking off (no runup) on some soft sand in Mexico.... being soft, the wheel maybe sunk in an inch or two, couple that with a bit of mounding for the un-even ground... and I got bit. Pitted the front wheel pant, too. I can only imagine it would have been worse if the prop was 1.5 inches closer to the ground. I have tundra and brand new Monster treads... Tim Roger: I assume the Senisenich prop is a good product, but as I fly in and out grass fields and I have come close to grinding a prop several times when the field was a bit softer than I thought (or was told). The extra 11/2" length would also put me closer to the concrete pad leading to my hanger as the ground has eroded a bit and Nancy and I were bogged down a couple of weeks ago. I have also recuded the rabbit population as I have hit 3 in the past couple of years. You mentioned a possible performance increase, I am skeptical because as you are spinning a longer airfoil with no power increase. Perhaps a word on any performance increase from FD is in order. My personal feeling is that I sure as heck would rather spend the money for a good fuel injection system. Sorry to be a bit negative, but until we gett more hard data I think I will pass on the Senisenich. See ya, Ken and nancy Nolde, N840KN, 400 hours (at the anti-gravity machine doctors for a 400 hr inspection/annual) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted August 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2011 Hi Ken, The Neuform 3 blade is a 65" prop and a Sensenich would be good replacement at 66". I fly a 66" Warp and it's just fine and has no issues with picking up debris. I think the 68" will be too long especially for the smaller wheeled planes. From what Sensenich told me FD was going to put the 68" 3 blade on the new LS's. I did some checking and measuring and I think it will pick up debris off a runway. FD now puts the larger nose wheel on all LS's regardless of the main tire size, but for the existing planes in the field with the 4.00-4 tire that will be too long. I believe and I think Sensenich thinks the 68" may be too long for the new LS's too. FD will just have to put out enough planes with them for a year and wait to get any feedback. The blades are low enough at 68" with the smaller tires to be an expensive weedwacker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted August 6, 2011 Report Share Posted August 6, 2011 Hi Ken, The Neuform 3 blade is a 65" prop and a Sensenich would be good replacement at 66". I fly a 66" Warp and it's just fine and has no issues with picking up debris. I think the 68" will be too long especially for the smaller wheeled planes. From what Sensenich told me FD was going to put the 68" 3 blade on the new LS's. I did some checking and measuring and I think it will pick up debris off a runway. FD now puts the larger nose wheel on all LS's regardless of the main tire size, but for the existing planes in the field with the 4.00-4 tire that will be too long. I believe and I think Sensenich thinks the 68" may be too long for the new LS's too. FD will just have to put out enough planes with them for a year and wait to get any feedback. The blades are low enough at 68" with the smaller tires to be an expensive weedwacker. Roger, I have an SW and LS sitting in the shop right now. The prop tips on both are the same height above the ground 11". The SW does have the small nose wheel. In both cases the longer Sensenich prop tips would still be above the wheels axle. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johngpilot Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 I know that the amphib option for CT LS's will require the Sensinich prop. Lots of real world testing (100 + hours of flight testing) on the water proved that that prop shortens the t/o run considerably. The prop's actual performance for that phase seems to be good and a swap out for the floats is a requirement of the addition. How this will translate to wheels for every day use is still not clear but for the floats it is the solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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