Rocket and chute costs

[FlyingMonkey]

Just now, airhound said:

Wonder what the operating limits are with just gravity fed fuel flow? Maybe it should read, “to ensure uninterrupted flight and passenger comfort, aim the plane downhill at 45 degree’s or greater, like a WW2 German JU87, Stuka, whilst screaming out the window in a high pitched shrill, making Stuka noises, to ensure a safe arrival”!

According to Roger, you might not get full RPM but otherwise it works fine.  IIRC he said something like 4000-4500rpm which is plenty to keep it flying.

[Tom Baker]

49 minutes ago, FlyingMonkey said:

According to Roger, you might not get full RPM but otherwise it works fine.  IIRC he said something like 4000-4500rpm which is plenty to keep it flying.

He is fuel injected, it is not going to run on gravity feed. 

[FlyingMonkey]

40 minutes ago, Tom Baker said:

He is fuel injected, it is not going to run on gravity feed. 

Right, I thought he was asking about my airplane.  Obviously not going to happen with FI. 

[Roger Lee]

Gravity flow from a high wing will not work on fuel injection. When the pump quits so does the engine. Within 2-3 seconds.

With a carb engine on a high wing can it can fly on gravity flow which is below the Rotax minimum of 2.2 psi listed in the manual. It can run at approximately 5K rpm. Anything above that the engine coughs and sputters. That said rarely ever does a mechanical fuel pump on our engines totally fail. They usually start leaking and then they get replaced.

[airhound]

Hey Roger,

the earlier point is fuel injected should have an auto fuel pump failover just short of main failure other than a human switch. But there probably isnt away for something like that to activate Quik enuf.  I know it’s all part of good pilots training for the unexpected. But down low those seconds and the average bear might could use some help….OR why not just leave the six fuel pump on…..maybe not up at altitude, but puttering around short trips?

[FlyingMonkey]

1 hour ago, airhound said:

Hey Roger,

the earlier point is fuel injected should have an auto fuel pump failover just short of main failure other than a human switch. But there probably isnt away for something like that to activate Quik enuf.  I know it’s all part of good pilots training for the unexpected. But down low those seconds and the average bear might could use some help….OR why not just leave the six fuel pump on…..maybe not up at altitude, but puttering around short trips?

A circuit that kicks in the aux pump if fuel pressure drops below a minimum threshold would do what you want.  You'd also want a panel light to tell you the aux pump is on...otherwise you might not know you've had a failure.

[Tom Baker]

1 hour ago, airhound said:

Hey Roger,

the earlier point is fuel injected should have an auto fuel pump failover just short of main failure other than a human switch. But there probably isnt away for something like that to activate Quik enuf.  I know it’s all part of good pilots training for the unexpected. But down low those seconds and the average bear might could use some help….OR why not just leave the six fuel pump on…..maybe not up at altitude, but puttering around short trips?

Why not have both on when down low? Rotax says both on for takeoff.

[FlyingMonkey]

1 hour ago, Tom Baker said:

Why not have both on when down low? Rotax says both on for takeoff.

Some of us are stay low down for hours, I spend a lot of time around 1000ft AGL.  Is there a limit for how long the secondary pump can be operated continuously?

[Tom Baker]

18 minutes ago, FlyingMonkey said:

Some of us are stay low down for hours, I spend a lot of time around 1000ft AGL.  Is there a limit for how long the secondary pump can be operated continuously?

I have thousands of hours flying tree top high or below from my pipeline and telephone cable days, 1000ft AGL is not low. You have plenty of time to switch the pump on if something happens there. No time limit that I am aware of on the aux pump. The pump is identical to the one that runs all of the time. 

[FlyingMonkey]

2 hours ago, Tom Baker said:

I have thousands of hours flying tree top high or below from my pipeline and telephone cable days, 1000ft AGL is not low. You have plenty of time to switch the pump on if something happens there. No time limit that I am aware of on the aux pump. The pump is identical to the one that runs all of the time. 

Not trying to start a contest, just saying 1000ft is lower than most fly in cruise.

I didn't know if it was a true second pump or more of a boost pump.

[Tom Baker]

18 hours ago, FlyingMonkey said:

Not trying to start a contest, just saying 1000ft is lower than most fly in cruise.

I didn't know if it was a true second pump or more of a boost pump.

As a young pilot I had an engine quit at maybe 200 feet on takeoff. I will share in hopes that others can learn from my mistake. I learned to fly in a Citabria 7ECA, that has a fuel system much like a CT. Two wing tanks tied together, one fuel shut off valve feeding the engine. I had been checked out in a Piper Tomahawk and Cherokee. The day this happened they were having a airlift at the airport. My boss said take over for Ed when he gets back in the Warrior, so that's what I did. I walked up to the airplane and opened the fuel cap on the right wing, and it was full of fuel. I jumped in the airplane with my passengers, and off we went. I was talking to the passengers while taxiing and during the run up. Back then we did the run up from memory. This was a brand new Warrior, with less than 25 hours on it, and I had not been in this airplane before. On my first takeoff roll I realized the door wasn't latched properly, so I aborted the takeoff, and taxied back. The new airplane had an extra seal that made the door harder to close. The second takeoff the door was close, and as I was right in front of the FBO at around 200 feet the engine quit. I turned slightly to the right so I would have a place to land, and then started with my emergency procedures. I checked fuel pump on, mixture, carb heat, and then selected the other fuel tank. The engine started back running, and I continued to climb out. It was only then that I noticed the left fuel gauge was showing empty. There were several factors that lead up to this, but ultimately it was my fault. 

A person's rote emergency procedures should allow for plenty of time at 1000 feet to turn on the aux fuel pump if the engine should happened to quit. It should even allow for enough time to consult the checklist. With the CT you should have almost 1:30 of airtime from 1000 feet until the ground, unless you forget to fly the airplane.

[FlyingMonkey]

Thanks for the anecdote Tom.  I agree in a CT 1000ft is a good bit of altitude, and time to run most obvious cross checks for causes.  Your story reminds my why I'm both annoyed by and happy with the simple on/off fuel system we have.  Annoying to balance fuel, but (mostly) idiot-proof.

 

[Mike Koerner]

Andy,

Although 1000' may offer enough time for a competent pilot to run though his memorized engine restart procedure, and, if unsuccessful, pick a place to land within gliding distance where survival is assured, and, if not able to do that, pull the chute while still above 400'; I still think you need to up your game a bit during cross-country flights.

There are lots of radio towers. Too many to see and avoid and no one wants to fly head down watching for obstructions on their moving map. However, there's not very many towers over 1000' tall and they are clearly identified with a distinctive symbol on our displays. It's easy to check every few minutes that there are none of those extra tall towers along the route ahead. But if you're only looking out for the tall ones, you must make sure you clear all the smaller ones, including ones that are 999 feet tall and setting on top of a knoll.

I use 1200' agl as my minimum cross country cruising altitude. And since I'm flying by hand, I add an additional margin to that, giving a target of 1200-1500' agl.

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

A few thoughts I'll share, every pilot has sectionals with them, the Maximum Elevation Features provide easy & relevant information to risks when flying low, per quadrant we're navigating in or through:

Whether it's terrain or towers, this is your floor of clearing all risks, and generally it's easy to identify the feature(s) to know where they are, when dropping below this.  

I understand there is a difference between hoping around local routes one knows every inch of land, and cross country.  However, cross country often has limitations with low ceilings, strong headwinds, or skirting under Class B shelves.  And some of us prefer to fly low, or are required to suit the mission.

I share this as I've been in many situations where watching screen and/or looking out the window for obstructions became the process, and that grows tiresome very quickly.

I recognize we have some very seasoned and capable pilots around here, and not correcting anyone's previous inputs.  I do view newer pilots trained in glass cockpits that "follow the magenta line", with displays not showing VFR sectionals and watching for red towers to pop up with "terrain warning" as poor airmanship.

[FlyingMonkey]

5 hours ago, Mike Koerner said:

Andy,

Although 1000' may offer enough time for a competent pilot to run though his memorized engine restart procedure, and, if unsuccessful, pick a place to land within gliding distance where survival is assured, and, if not able to do that, pull the chute while still above 400'; I still think you need to up your game a bit during cross-country flights.

There are lots of radio towers. Too many to see and avoid and no one wants to fly head down watching for obstructions on their moving map. However, there's not very many towers over 1000' tall and they are clearly identified with a distinctive symbol on our displays. It's easy to check every few minutes that there are none of those extra tall towers along the route ahead. But if you're only looking out for the tall ones, you must make sure you clear all the smaller ones, including ones that are 999 feet tall and setting on top of a knoll.

I use 1200' agl as my minimum cross country cruising altitude. And since I'm flying by hand, I add an additional margin to that, giving a target of 1200-1500' agl.

Oh, I never said anything about cross country flights.  I was talking about "most" of my flying, which is in the local area where I know where all the towers and hazards are.  Much of my time is spent popping in and out of little grass strips, and going to higher altitudes to go five or ten miles between strips doesn't make much sense.

For cross country flights I'm usually 2000-6000ft AGL, and generally the longer the flight the higher, and I stay higher in unfamiliar territory as well.  ADS-B obstacle alerts help also.  We do have at least three towers over 1000ft tall (I call them "widow makers", lol) within 20 miles of my home airport.

[FlyingMonkey]

2 hours ago, GrassStripFlyBoy said:

A few thoughts I'll share, every pilot has sectionals with them, the Maximum Elevation Features provide easy & relevant information to risks when flying low, per quadrant we're navigating in or through:

Whether it's terrain or towers, this is your floor of clearing all risks, and generally it's easy to identify the feature(s) to know where they are, when dropping below this.  

I understand there is a difference between hoping around local routes one knows every inch of land, and cross country.  However, cross country often has limitations with low ceilings, strong headwinds, or skirting under Class B shelves.  And some of us prefer to fly low, or are required to suit the mission.

I share this as I've been in many situations where watching screen and/or looking out the window for obstructions became the process, and that grows tiresome very quickly.

I recognize we have some very seasoned and capable pilots around here, and not correcting anyone's previous inputs.  I do view newer pilots trained in glass cockpits that "follow the magenta line", with displays not showing VFR sectionals and watching for red towers to pop up with "terrain warning" as poor airmanship.

Good points, and I agree.

[Towner]

Fly out west west for awhile. I recently flew to Tucson from my airport near Fresno. Flying at 8500 Mel, I was sometimes 8000 feet agl and sometimes less than 2000 agl. And this was not taking a direct route, but going through some mountain passes. 
 

I have only flown east of the Rockies a few times, but the relatively flat terrain is beautiful and makes flying low and slow a lot of fun. I’m guessing the guys that are used to flying in the flat terrain would love to play out here too!

[Garrett Gee]

1 hour ago, Towner said:

I’m guessing the guys that are used to flying in the flat terrain would love to play out here too!

Have a friend out in Santa Fe, and I want to do nothing more than go fly out in that area, so I would say that is a fair guess.

[Towner]

[Towner]

I guess I’m getting away from the topic. Ed takes much better pics anyway!