Low time pilots new aircraft

[Franklyn]

We are a pair of low time pilots, just qualified, looking to get our first aircraft. We've trained in a Skyranger Classic, and both like the look of the CTSW, of which there's one for sale near us. What would everyone's advice be regarding this potential purchase? Many thanks.

[Towner]

Great airplane if you only need two seats. More fun than any other airplane I’ve owned. A little tougher than some planes to get comfortable with landings, but once you figure them out, they are fine. Wide cabin, 110 lb baggage capacity, and good speed.

Pretty cheap to fly and cheap on maintenance. The five year rubber replacement on the engine (all rotax 912 engines in any aircraft require it I believe), costs a little, as well as the parachute repack every 6 years and rocket replacement every 12 years. Check when the rubber and chute were last done. Recent prices for each are listed in this forum.

The CTSW built before mid 2006 have a 1500 tbo, but after mid 2006 had a 2000 tbo. When the rubber and chute were last done, as well as if the engine has the lower tbo, may be topics to help negotiations on price. I still wouldn’t let a good plane go at a fair price though.

It seems all CTSWs will have flap problems sooner or later. Not really a safety issue as much as a repair issue. It seems the forum pretty much has trouble shooting down.

There are other guys on here that can tell you about things to look for in a pre-purchase inspection. They know every inch of these airplanes.

This forum has covered about any question you can think of, so try the search function out. Still, don’t hesitate to ask more, as it will almost always be answered.

Good luck!

[Franklyn]

Many thanks for this info - unfortunately we were outbid for the one we were after, but there are a couple CT2Ks around. How do people feel the older aircraft compares?

[procharger]

Depending on year ask about soft start modules if it has them ? If not beware 

of starter issues. Ask someone here about that  if you are not aware

what that is all about.

[Franklyn]

So we bit the bullet and bought a CT2k, 23 years old but beautifully looked after. Happy days! Now the learning begins…

[GrassStripFlyBoy]

Congrats & welcome to the club.  Stick to the calmest of days for the first few hours, as that helps learn the feel and technique for landing, then gradually increase into stronger winds.  In time you'll find these are very fun and capable machines.  Share some pic's of it when you can.

[Towner]

Congratulations! I agree with starting on calm days. If you do have a crosswind, keep that correction in all the way through till parking because if you still have some speed and no correction, doesn’t take much for the wind to lift a wing and get your attention!

Don’t let us scare you though. It’s a great plane and you’ll love landing it after you get comfortable.

[Franklyn]

Thanks for all your input guys - we're still waiting to get the aircraft to our field, the weather's been too poor for my skills at least. Can't wait tho, & will keep you posted on our journey with the new plane

[Av1ate]

The best tip I can give you for landings is to try to not land. Set up the descent and fly it down the runway until it settles down. Light back pressure in small amounts. It will drop down suddenly as it gets close to stalling in the flair so you want to be very close to the ground when that happens. 

[Franklyn]

Sounds like how we’re taught how to land at the grass strip I fly from, thanks

[Franklyn]

Watching it come in tho, it seemed to float considerably more than the Skyranger which we’re accustomed to 

[Eddie Cesnalis]

6 minutes ago, Franklyn said:

Watching it come in tho, it seemed to float considerably more than the Skyranger which we’re accustomed to 

reduce approach speed to reduce float

[Towner]

1 hour ago, Eddie Cesnalis said:

reduce approach speed to reduce float

Seems there are two trains of thought on the forum on how to land. Some guys fly a faster approach, often with only 15 degrees of flaps and kinda fly it onto the runway.

Others, including myself, slow the approach speed down, more flaps, and use a normal flair.

I won’t push either method, just suggesting you try both.

[Tom Baker]

5 minutes ago, Towner said:

Seems there are two trains of thought on the forum on how to land. Some guys fly a faster approach, often with only 15 degrees of flaps and kinda fly it onto the runway.

Others, including myself, slow the approach speed down, more flaps, and use a normal flair.

I won’t push either method, just suggesting you try both.

My preference has always been less flaps, but a normal round out and flare with a touchdown near stall speed. I tend to favor starting the round out a little higher to start bleeding speed before ground effect really takes hold. My aiming point is at least 300 feet prior to where I want to touch down.

[Eddie Cesnalis]

1 hour ago, Towner said:

Seems there are two trains of thought on the forum on how to land. Some guys fly a faster approach, often with only 15 degrees of flaps and kinda fly it onto the runway.

Others, including myself, slow the approach speed down, more flaps, and use a normal flair.

I won’t push either method, just suggesting you try both.

flying it on presents the bigger vulnerability.  If you have 3 wheels in contact and are at stall speed or faster you can loose directional control to a gust with no real answer.  Landing on one or two mains as you slow till the nose settles with stick full aft minimizes it.  40 degrees can get you gusted back in the air so 30 seems best for normal landings.

Tom's method of 15 degrees but not flying it on isn't bad too.

[Towner]

5 minutes ago, Eddie Cesnalis said:

flying it on presents the bigger vulnerability.  If you have 3 wheels in contact and are at stall speed or faster you can loose directional control to a gust with no real answer.  Landing on one or two mains as you slow till the nose settles with stick full aft minimizes it.  40 degrees can get you gusted back in the air so 30 seems best for normal landings.

Tom's method of 15 degrees but not flying it on isn't bad too.

My method is the same as yours. I use a little slower approach speed, 30 degrees, and keep my nose wheel off as long as I can.

I will say that I regularly practice landings with all flap settings, including-6. I’m sure most of us do. No big deal at any flap setting, just don’t drag the tail!

[Tommy Mc]

For me it the length of runway you are dealing with will determine how much flap required. Short strips I find require more Flap less speed.  I have 400m of Grass, get it right and I will turn into the Hangar mid point using full flap and 45/50knots on final  (nil wind conditions).  If I get it wrong, a little too high, a little too fast and it can feel tight for space. Fly Boy did a nice video demonstrating float distance with various flap settings.  As for the final bit.... when you level off in the Flair with no power do your best to keep it flying as per ED.

 

Rubber side Down

[Jim Meade]

30 degrees of flaps unless it's gusty cross-wind, then 15.  40 degrees for probably 20-30% of landings.

[Ulmo133]

This topic is really interesting. Thank you all for the feedback.

Since I change the propeller (I don't know if it's me or the propeller) I have some difficulties to land the CT not too hard when I'm heavy (between 1100 to 1250 pounds).
I arrive between 54 and 59 knots, but on the last few feet, when I put it to idle, the speed drops very quickly and the CT sinks and the landing is quite hard. I tried to keep a little power, but you really need very little, otherwise the CT accelerates too much. Do you have a tips for me ?

[Eddie Cesnalis]

4 hours ago, Ulmo133 said:

This topic is really interesting. Thank you all for the feedback.

Since I change the propeller (I don't know if it's me or the propeller) I have some difficulties to land the CT not too hard when I'm heavy (between 1100 to 1250 pounds).
I arrive between 54 and 59 knots, but on the last few feet, when I put it to idle, the speed drops very quickly and the CT sinks and the landing is quite hard. I tried to keep a little power, but you really need very little, otherwise the CT accelerates too much. Do you have a tips for me ?

Early on 'playing chicken with the ground' was the phrase that meant having a good sense of where the ground is and rounding out lower and retaining a little energy for a couple of seconds of float but not balooning up at all.  In other words eleminate most of the distance you are rapidly sinking from.

A visulation that I like is to imagine a 12' tall hangar door over the threshold and fly through it.

Always with right hand on throttle in case you need to reduce the rapid sink but striving to not need it to practice for dead stick landings.

Another tip is to use all of the stick travel to the aft stop.  The unwanted rapid sink can be reduced by continuing to move the stick aft towards the stop as energy bleeds off and you can do so without balooning.

 

[Towner]

Once the runway is made, I pull back to idle and generally land at idle. Hand is still on the throttle in case I need it. There is plenty of pitch authority available, in fact mine is pretty touchy on round out, so I’m using small movements or it’s easy to pull the nose up a little to much. I keep the nose off for as long as I can once the mains are on the ground.

A prior owner had drug the tail a little in my plane. A local law enforcement agency had also drug the tail a couple times on theirs. I’ve never been worried about it at 15 or 30 degrees of flaps, but when I practice landings at -6, I can see where it would be easy to do. At 0 and -6, I don’t do a full stall landing and fly it on with a little extra speed to avoid this.

With the pointy little nose, my sight picture was a little off at landing and I wasn’t landing perfectly straight at first. Sit on the runway with the airplane pointing straight down the runway and get a good idea of how the plane should look when pointing straight. Some put a piece of tape or other mark on the left side of the glass to help with the sight picture.

In smooth air, I think I fly short final a little slower than most. Probably about 52 with 30 degrees of flaps and maybe even a little slower when really light. But, I’m really not sure how accurate my airspeed indicator is!

[procharger]

What is your idle speed RPM?

[Towner]

I would have to check on the ground because I don’t let it run that low on the ground. I believe it’s 1600 though. I  keep it in the green when stopped or taxing.

When you are moving forward in flight, the idle speed will be a couple hundred rpm higher that the idle speed sitting on the ground due to the forward airflow through the propeller.