Blueyonder Posted September 29 Report Share Posted September 29 Hi everyone. I would like to know if there is an app or a procedure to extract information for a specific year, Make / Model, the SB,, Notifications, Alerts, Letters.. individually from: http://flightdesignusa.com/support/resources/ Is there a good procedure that describes the Ailerons alignment for a CTLSi. After the removal of the wings the ailerons, if you set one to align at one end, the other is off by about 2 in.? Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueyonder Posted September 29 Author Report Share Posted September 29 Hi everyone. I got some information, that may help others, using Mozilla Firefox>Edit>Find>xxx, see below. If someone has a better idea please post. SB / SN-from 09-2014 to 09-2024 https://flightdesign.com/service-documents SA-ASTM-CTLS-04 25-11-2014 CTLSi Engine Installation Redundancy Diagnosis / ASB-914-044R1. SB-ASTM-CTLS -08 09-09-2014 Replacement of regulator A and regulator B for ROTAX engine type 912iS. SB-ASTM-CTLS-11 02-10-2015 Verification of Rescue System Cover Installation SB-ASTM-CTLS-04 15-05-2015 Supporting Information to Engine Start-Up of Rotax 912 iS on Flight Design Aircraft SB-ASTM-CTLS-12 02-12-2015 in the level of a Service Directive USA Data Plate Replacement SN-ASTM-CTLS-05 13-04-2016 Spare Parts Availability SB-ASTM-CTLS-13 04-08-2016 Verification of Stabilator Mounting Pivot SN-ASTM-CTLS-06 02-05-2017 CTLE-LSA Compliance as a Light-Sport Aircraft SB-ASTM-CTLS-17 23-12-2019 Repair procedure to additional wires protection SB-ASTM-CTLS-16 22-11-2019 Installation of Starter Solenoid on CTLS with Large SLA Battery SB-ASTM-CTLS-15 26-08-2019 Dynon Autopilot Servo SV42T Inspection and Replacement of Linear Actuator Servo Pulley SB-ASTM-CTLS-14 20-03-2019 Installation of Reinforcement Plates on 4 Point Harnesses for CTLS Series SL-ASTM-CTLS-02 24-09-2020 Drain Holes in Air Filter Box SB-ASTM-CTLS-18 30-10-2020 Inspection of Float Mount Brackets SL-ASTM-CTLS-03 08-12-2021 Inspection of push-pull cable jam nuts SB-ASTM-CTLS-20 24-01-2022 BRS Harness and Pickup Collar Verification SB-ASTM-CTLS-99 14-09-2023 Equipment Manufacturer Notification Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted September 29 Report Share Posted September 29 You can find all of the Service Bulletins, Safety Directives here, https://flightdesign.com/service-documents . Just doing a wing removal shouldn't have changed the aileron rigging. The CTLS manual should provide aileron rigging information. The airplane should have been delivered with all of the maintenance and parts manuals in hard copy, and they should have been transferred with the airplane if purchased in the used market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueyonder Posted September 29 Author Report Share Posted September 29 Hi Tom and everyone. Thanks Tom, I have the information that you pointed to, but I was looking for a condensed version, something like I posted above. I think what I have should be enough for now. I am not sure why the alignment was off, but the only thing that may have affected it is the last wing removal / inspection? I will look in the manual and see how much is described, how informative that is? Thanks. Another, somewhat side question. Is it typical, should it be done, that the mechanic that does the annual should do the Software update for PFD, MFD, Engine...? Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted September 30 Report Share Posted September 30 I have pulled the wings on several different CT's, several of them multiple times. There is nothing in the wing pull that should effect the aileron rigging. As for updates, the checklist calls for downloading and clearing the faults on the ECU. Updating the EFIS and EMS is not part of the inspection. What I see most often with the Skyview equipped airplanes is the owner has installed the latest Dynon updates. If I were to do anything it would be to install the latest approved Flight Design version. Most owners wouldn't like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted September 30 Report Share Posted September 30 I agree with Tom. A normal wing pull should not affect the ailerons. If someone bent or tweaked it during this then that may be a possibility, but not a likely one. You'd have to be pretty rough with it or forces it somehow. Why do you think your ailerons are out of adjustment? I haven't seen any out of adjustment and the times owners complained it was because they were cross controlling with the trim wheels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueyonder Posted September 30 Author Report Share Posted September 30 Hi Tom, Roger and everyone. The reason why we think the ailerons are out of alignment is de to the way they look with respect to the fixed portion of the wing, static, on the ground. I will take a pic and try to show it and make it more clear. If you align one side to be even the other side is off. This only started after the wings were removed. Thanks Tom. I did not think that most mechs will do the software for the Dynon, battery back ups, BUDS.. but maybe some would? Thanks everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted September 30 Report Share Posted September 30 BUDS yes, the others no. Look at the trailing edge of the ailerons compared to the flaps at -6°. They should line up there. Someone could have moved the trim during the inspection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueyonder Posted October 1 Author Report Share Posted October 1 Hi Tom and everyone. 10 hours ago, Tom Baker said: Look at the trailing edge of the ailerons compared to the flaps at -6° That was one of the measurements / procedures. If I set one side even the other, with reference to the flap edge is off by about 1.5 in. The other was to set one side at1.5 in from the 90 deg corner on the most outside edge of the wing and measured the other side and it was also off by the same amount. There is also a problem with the L,R trim wheel, it never has any effect on the ailerons and to get it centered to the yellow mark inside it has to be all the way to the left, very hard to move / rotate and it changes very little, without affecting / moving the aileron surfaces. It's like the trim wheel has no connection (does not affect) to aileron position. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted October 1 Report Share Posted October 1 The little trim indicator is just a little button on a cable with a set screw. It is possible for it to slip on the cable and get out of position. So I wouldn't put any stock in it as a real indication. Once everything is set up and trimmed out loosen it and slide it to the middle and retighten. The trim system works by adjusting spring tension in the aileron system. There should be a cable and spring visible in the left side baggage compartment. On the right side the spring and cable is attached to a bellcrank that is adjusted by rolling the trim wheel to adjust tension on the spring. Verify that the bellcrank is moving with the trim wheel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted October 1 Report Share Posted October 1 Don't worry about where the trim wheel pin is. Most are off anyway. Go fly and if you can trim it up in flight then there isn't an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueyonder Posted October 1 Author Report Share Posted October 1 Hi Tom, Roger and everyone. I will have a look inside the baggage compartment and see if things are adjusting / moving. I expected the aileron to change position while moving the trim wheel? I will be able to test fly it the next couple of days and see how it behaves in flight. I will keep you posted. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted October 2 Report Share Posted October 2 If we fly our own plane, it may not matter if the trim indicator is off the mark, but if another flies the plane and in the course of the pre-flight resets the trim to it's normal position, the plane may start out quite out of trim. Since it's not hard to reset the indicator so it's accurate, it may not be a bad idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted October 2 Report Share Posted October 2 It isn't necessary to have the pins in a perfect position. You trim the plane according to how it flies. Even if you had no pins adjusting the wheels wouldn't be any different. You should be able to trim the plane so you can fly hands off the stick and feet off the pedals and by doing that it doesn't make any difference on where the pins are. You do the same type of flying with the stick. You move it to accomplish a task like fly straight and level. All you're doing with the wheels is applying the same force on the ailerons, rudder and stab except now you used the wheel influance to do the same as your hands and feet were doing. When you fly normally there aren't any pins on the pedals or stick to fly and you do just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted October 2 Report Share Posted October 2 1 hour ago, Roger Lee said: It isn't necessary to have the pins in a perfect position. You trim the plane according to how it flies. Even if you had no pins adjusting the wheels wouldn't be any different. You should be able to trim the plane so you can fly hands off the stick and feet off the pedals and by doing that it doesn't make any difference on where the pins are. You do the same type of flying with the stick. You move it to accomplish a task like fly straight and level. All you're doing with the wheels is applying the same force on the ailerons, rudder and stab except now you used the wheel influance to do the same as your hands and feet were doing. When you fly normally there aren't any pins on the pedals or stick to fly and you do just fine. Roger, based on personal experience I disagree. It is always good to have a reference to the neutral position of the trim prior to take off. I once went on a flight with a very inexperienced student it their father's Tri pacer. It didn't have a good indicator for the trim, and the trim is adjusted by moving the leading edge of the horizontal stabilizer. It was trimmed full nose down and stuck there. By the time I realized it we were in the air with no other choice but to proceed. I made it around the pattern and made a safe landing, but it took both hands pulling on the control wheel, and the arms were starting to cramp up. The CT is not as heavy on the controls, but it is always best to be able to take off trimmed, and not having to deal with an out of trim airplane during a critical stage of flight. Once the airplane has been trimmed neutrally, the indicators should be centered for anyone else who might fly the airplane. As for comparing them to the controls. The rudder pedals should be even with each other as their reference. the stick should be vertical for neutral ailerons for reference. The pitch should be near the center of the stick travel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueyonder Posted October 2 Author Report Share Posted October 2 Hi Tom, Roger and everyone. Roger, I do agree with you, to some extent, but I've experienced situations, in much heavier planes, where things got very close to going very badly very quickly, and I tend to always look at all indicators present and available before takeoff. My thinking is if it's there it should be right. I've flown acft without any type of trim indicators, but I always approached them a different way. Having indicators that may not be indicating properly is worse than not having any, in my opinion. Tom, see my response above, and I do appreciate your input, my experience and I've been at it for many years, also confirms your opinion. I've actually had some pilots that were not paying attention to the trim, before takeoff, and I showed them what the consequences could be. I've had a young lady, 90 lbs wet, that wanted to transition to a C812. The trim was left in a full nose down position, after a maintenance session. Before taxi / TO I asked her if she looked at all indicators, and if she was ready, and I actually moved my hand around the areas where the trim indicators were, she responded affirmatively. We rolled out and reached TO speed but she was unable to lift the nose up on her own, and I had to intervene. This is also a situation where pilots can get in trouble during a Go Around. Some acft can get very heavy on the controls during the land / T.O. phase, be ready for additional force, in proper configuration, to achieve the proper attitude and airspeed. This gets / got many SR22 pilot / owners in trouble. Thanks everyone. I will see if there is good fix for this and will keep you posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted October 2 Report Share Posted October 2 The wheels wouldn't affect anything even at take off because you have the stick and pedals under your control and you move either where you want them to maintain control and the plane flying straight. You could move those wheels anywhere you want them because you control the plane. The trim wheels only take away some of the work and allow a light touch on the stick because then it's in trim. The trim wheels only bias the input on the stick and pedals and don't fully control them and they don't override the pilot's control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted October 2 Report Share Posted October 2 1 hour ago, Roger Lee said: The wheels wouldn't affect anything even at take off because you have the stick and pedals under your control and you move either where you want them to maintain control and the plane flying straight. You could move those wheels anywhere you want them because you control the plane. The trim wheels only take away some of the work and allow a light touch on the stick because then it's in trim. The trim wheels only bias the input on the stick and pedals and don't fully control them and they don't override the pilot's control. Roger, I don't know your flying background, but your comments tend to indicate that you have flown mostly ultralight and light sport aircraft. Once you start getting into heavier aircraft the trim system may have enough effectiveness that the pilot may have problems overriding the force of the trim. Also not everyone flying a light sport aircraft will only ever continue to fly light sport. It is important to have the airplanes properly set up and the pilots trained on proper procedures in case they do make the transition to a heavier airplane. Just the difference in control force between landing trim and taking off without retrimming in my Piper Warrior is significate. It is manageable, but if the trim had been moved to the extreme limits it might not be manageable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted October 2 Report Share Posted October 2 "to the extreme limits it might not be manageable" This means it isn't even close to correct, but our trim wheels only add bias to whatever setting your trying to achieve. It doesn't cause loss of control if you have your hand on the stick and feet on the pedals. I started flying in 1981. Was self taught in Ultralights in the begining. Flew many of those. Even my Pitbull dog had 250 hrs. in them with me and 80K miles on my Honda Goldwing. Then self taught in Gyros for for about 5-6 years. Then helicopters for about 7 years, then tail draggers until I finally went to light sport. I have well over 4700 hrs. Well over 2.5K hours in CT's. Tom, I agree to have them properly setup, but the trim wheels not perfectly centered with the pin isn't a deal breaker and the pin orientation should not dictate where the wheel gets set on a final setting in flight. You adjust things so it flys straight and hands off. I can do that with every CT I've flown. I've had a number of CT owners come in an claim their plane was out of trim. All it ever was was they were cross controlling with the trim wheels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted October 2 Report Share Posted October 2 Even in my Rans S-7S, trim in the checklist is important. The plane has electric trim and it is easy to accidently run the pitch trim all the way up or down. It not only takes significant pressure to counter-act extreme trim, it is also happening just at take-off and can be disconcerting. The position of the trim indicator is a must on the pre-flight for that airplane. About 15 or 20 years ago, there was an accident in a Cessna 501 or similar where a medical team crashed into one of the Great Lakes because of runaway trim. On my next trip in a similar small jet, I asked my FO to run the trim all the way up when we were at a safe altitude and I found it possible but very challenging to hold against the trim even for a few minutes. In an actual situation, I'd have certainly been looking for the circuit breaker. My experience with trim in a Twin Cessna 401, 402, was similar. It is easy to load those planes to aft CG and one doesn't not want to be taking off with aft CGT and nose-up trim. It is a disservice to say that just because we can all manage our own CT readily that it is OK to ignore what Flight Design itself says is good pre-flight procedure to verify the trim indicator setting is as prescribed. Adjust the trim indicator properly, note it's position in pre-flight and set it as prescribed. My observation is that many CFIs who train in light aircraft never, and I mean NEVER, teach trim. If one transitions to a larger aircraft, one has to relearn the importance of trim because the plane demands it. As Roger correctly says, you can horse around lighter airplanes. And you can get away with it. It is a bad idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueyonder Posted October 2 Author Report Share Posted October 2 Hi Roger, Tom and everyone. 39 minutes ago, Roger Lee said: ...were cross controlling with the trim wheels. That, to me, reinforces the fact that the trim indicators should be in the correct position. Why were they X controlling? I am glad to see this subject / post developing, slightly off the OP subject, but since I am the OP, unless others have objections, I accept the deviation. I do not consider this an argument, for me is more a good, logical, subject to discuss and learn and teach. I've observed that most pilots have a very limited understanding on how trim works, what it does. 99.9% when you ask what trim does, you get the standard answer, "relieves pressure.." and completely forget, never knew, that trim also controls airspeed and other functions.... I do agree with Roger, specifically for the CT / light sport, force wise, but I am in a position where I teach others and I am convinced that trim indicators shout indicate properly, and be correctly used, and set, for different flight regimes and configurations. Thank again, everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted October 2 Report Share Posted October 2 "That, to me, reinforces the fact that the trim indicators should be in the correct position". Cross controlling with the trim is caused by the pilot and then adjusting the controls out of sequence. All I ever did for these owners was put the wheels back in close proximity to their neutral state then I went flying with the owner. Then I adjust the pitch first so it's out of the way, then ailerons, then rudder. This fixed every single complaint of my trim wheels are out of adjustment. Moving them too far out or out of sequence can cause a cross control. Bottom line. Forget the pin just adjust the wheels to fly hands off. The pin position isn't important. The wheel adjustment is. You could remove the pins and still always trim the plane. It's straight and true flight that's important which takes additional pressure off the stick and rudder pedals and makes your job as a pilot easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Cesnalis Posted October 2 Report Share Posted October 2 2 hours ago, Roger Lee said: Cross controlling with the trim is caused by the pilot and then adjusting the controls out of sequence. Hey Roger, bringing sequence into this made me think and I see how I need flaperons trimmed for hands off level with a centered ball to trim my rudder. A calibrated centered slip/skid ball is needed to know your flaperons are trimmed and its not your rudder leveling the wings. I can see if pitch or roll is off but not yaw so I have never figured out if the angle on our mushroom panels intruduces error in a slip/skid ball either physical or EFIS. Any comment? Anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted October 3 Report Share Posted October 3 CTSW Aircraft Operating Instructions 8.3 Before takeoff 14. Trim Set for takeoff. You can't set it for takeoff if you don't have an indicator. Obviously, the indicator must be installed correctly so that it will line up with the trim mark. The question is not whether you can get away with bad practice but whether that bad practice will someday lead to incorrect setting of a critical control. The Airplane Flying Handbook speaks of setting trim in a context that assumes an indicator. Private pilot ACS X multiengine operations Skills PA.X.B.S2d Trim set for takeoff. There is no question that one can and should adjust the trim control in flight without reference to the indicator. The question is setting the trim to the correct setting in pre-flight. BTW, if you really want to know how a stall in out-of-trim condition feels, go out with a fiendish CFI and practice trim stalls at a safe altitude. They are required for CFI and they can really get your attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlennM Posted October 3 Report Share Posted October 3 Those 737 Max crashes were from MCAS running the elevator trim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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