tfdixon Posted January 3 Report Posted January 3 Last summer I received the notice regarding FD filing for insolvency. Does anybody know who the two large accounts that have cut FD's cash flow and capital needs? Now it has been reported in all the alphabet magazines. The notice is very positive. BUT, most are to help the new controlling agency pursue all avenues of recovery. Any inside info out there? Quote
FlyingMonkey Posted January 3 Report Posted January 3 13 hours ago, tfdixon said: Last summer I received the notice regarding FD filing for insolvency. Does anybody know who the two large accounts that have cut FD's cash flow and capital needs? Now it has been reported in all the alphabet magazines. The notice is very positive. BUT, most are to help the new controlling agency pursue all avenues of recovery. Any inside info out there? Ugh...FD seems to have been on the ragged edge of financial viability since 2015 or so, and has gone through a lot of re-orgs and insolvency shenanigans off and on almost as long as I've owned my airplane. I hope this helps them get things nailed down, but building airplanes is a really hard business. Quote
Madhatter Posted January 3 Report Posted January 3 I think insolvency is an issue for most LSA manufacturers, it is a very difficult business affected by not just domestic economic conditions but global. These aircraft are not being built in the US. With MOSAIC rules coming up the competition is getting worse as a lot of manufacturers need to redesign their aircraft to remain competitive. To make things worse, US manufacturers like Cessna, Piper, Beechcraft, etc do not like MOSAIC. This doesn't come from me but from someone I know who is very much involved in the process. We can only hope that things work out. Quote
FlyingMonkey Posted January 3 Report Posted January 3 28 minutes ago, Madhatter said: To make things worse, US manufacturers like Cessna, Piper, Beechcraft, etc do not like MOSAIC. This doesn't come from me but from someone I know who is very much involved in the process. We can only hope that things work out. Not at all surprising...The established, certified manufacturers don't want to have to redesign to compete with more innovative designs that cost less. Quote
Madhatter Posted January 3 Report Posted January 3 We in the US have not built a new design certified GA aircraft other than Cirrus in over 30 years. Of course Cirrus is owned by China. With our current FAA its almost impossible. In my opinion we have lost the entire industry for GA, and even Boeing seems to be struggling. Who wants to pay $500,000 for a new, old technology 172 these days? That's why experimental is flourishing. Quote
FlyingMonkey Posted January 3 Report Posted January 3 33 minutes ago, Madhatter said: We in the US have not built a new design certified GA aircraft other than Cirrus in over 30 years. Of course Cirrus is owned by China. With our current FAA its almost impossible. In my opinion we have lost the entire industry for GA, and even Boeing seems to be struggling. Who wants to pay $500,000 for a new, old technology 172 these days? That's why experimental is flourishing. 100%. It's also why the pilot population is aging into extinction. Young people can't afford to fly as recreation, even if they are highly motivated. It's just too damn expensive. Quote
Eddie Cesnalis Posted January 3 Report Posted January 3 1 hour ago, FlyingMonkey said: the pilot population is aging into extinction. Young people can't afford to fly as recreation, even if they are highly motivated. It's just too damn expensive. When I started flying we looked at the cost of owning a nice skyhawk as similar to owning a pickup truck (pickup trucks 40 years ago where at quite a different price point). Vehicles, housing, food and insurance costs have put the American dream out of reach for the middleclass at least going forward. Aviation moreso. As we change lanes with a new government I can see reason for optimism. Less optistic about our niche in Aviation. Quote
eventhorizon Posted January 22 Report Posted January 22 The FlightDesign web site has not been functioning for the last few days. I get access forbidden error. I wonder if this is a technical glitch or another outcome of the insolvency process. Quote
Madhatter Posted January 22 Report Posted January 22 I suppose the big issue is, if it is permanently shut down there will be no maintenance data or service bulletin updates. Hopefully that will not be the case, but if so then ELSA will be the norm. This has happened to many LSA aircraft in the past. Quote
Anticept Posted January 22 Report Posted January 22 Depends on what happens with the IP. The faa does allow engineering cooperatives to take responsibility, but they have to have rights to the IP. Quote
airhound Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 10 hours ago, Madhatter said: I suppose the big issue is, if it is permanently shut down there will be no maintenance data or service bulletin updates. Hopefully that will not be the case, but if so then ELSA will be the norm. This has happened to many LSA aircraft in the past. Could the ELSA conversion be automatic with FAA in this scenario? Quote
Tom Baker Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 It may not be automatic, but it will be forced if it comes to that. Quote
Madhatter Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 The bigger issue is parts availability. If you have to make the parts you will have to be experimental. Quote
airhound Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 Does FAA issue a set of evolved/desirable ELSA operating limitations or is it ‘to each their own and buyer beware’…? Quote
Madhatter Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 13 minutes ago, airhound said: Does FAA issue a set of evolved/desirable ELSA operating limitations or is it ‘to each their own and buyer beware’…? When I converted to ELSA the DAR obtained operating limitations from the FAA in Oklahoma City. I think there are some small options but I don't know. I guess I could ask him, I've done projects with him for over 35 yrs when he was with the FAA. Quote
airhound Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 Thanks Madhatter, I want to be ready! if you would ask. And any advice to avoid-less-than desirable outcomes in that process is appreciated. Quote
Madhatter Posted January 23 Report Posted January 23 Talked to the DAR. He said Washington headquarters dictates the limitations which are non negotiable. Quote
Anticept Posted January 24 Report Posted January 24 There are some limitations that are autogenerated by the AWS system as the DAR fills out the 8130-7 form. Then there are more that the DAR can choose to put on. See FAA order 8130.2 (k as of this writing) chapter 9, appendix D-1, and table D-1. Quote
Madhatter Posted January 24 Report Posted January 24 29 minutes ago, Anticept said: There are some limitations that are autogenerated by the AWS system as the DAR fills out the 8130-7 form. Then there are more that the DAR can choose to put on. See FAA order 8130.2 (k as of this writing) chapter 9, appendix D-1, and table D-1. This DAR said things have been changed, I can't tell you any more than that. I was offered his position before he retired but I declined due to liability. Maybe if I had taken it I would be able to tell you. He is the only DAR in SC that does EAB and ELSA and is considering dropping them and just doing jet aircraft. Apparently he is finding some experimental owners less than honorable in representing their aircraft, that's why I declined. Quote
Jim Meade Posted January 24 Report Posted January 24 What Corey said is my experience and I've done two ELSA and one E-AB, the last one in 2022. The DAR has some latitude and it it best to be prepared ahead of time and able to chat him up so your concerns are addressed. But, agreed, there is much less latitude on the 2022 plane than on the first one. Quote
Madhatter Posted January 24 Report Posted January 24 He told me he no longer has latitude. That is what the FAA is today. I would not have been able to put up with being a beurocrat. Prior to being offered the DAR position they suggested I be a DER and that would have been far worse. I no longer put my signature on any logbook other than mine, too much litigation today. Maybe DOGE will change things. Quote
Anticept Posted January 24 Report Posted January 24 6 hours ago, Madhatter said: This DAR said things have been changed, I can't tell you any more than that. I was offered his position before he retired but I declined due to liability. Maybe if I had taken it I would be able to tell you. He is the only DAR in SC that does EAB and ELSA and is considering dropping them and just doing jet aircraft. Apparently he is finding some experimental owners less than honorable in representing their aircraft, that's why I declined. The DAR I was talking with a year ago pretty much said the same thing. He can add a few extra restrictions if he thinks an aircraft needs it, but he HAS to put on the cert what the order says has to be put on it. Quote
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