flyerg1000 Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 My CTLS flies right wing low "hands off" since new. The aileron adjustment has been checked as per manual and with the control stick vertical the ailerons are in line with the -12 (-6) flap position. When you let the control stick go it is immediately pulled to the right, presumably by the springs, and the right wing drops. Adjusting the aileron trim fully to the left will alleviate the drop a little but is still not acceptable as the LS rolls to the right immediately. The maintenance manual does not seem to discuss the aileron trim at all or how to adjust the spring tension to keep the control stick vertical "hands off" Any assistance would be appreciated flyerg1000 PS I have now attached pictures of the problem (26 Nov 20111) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 Many use the trims out of sequence and it causes one surface to try and cross control another.I have heard this several times and it's usually the pilot. First you need to put all trims back in the middle. Then start out flying at cruise flat and level. Then adjust the pitch, then adjust the ailerons and last the rudder. Seems most aileron trim wheels are slightly to the right and the rudder is middle to slightly right, but yours may be different so start at the beginning. The rudder will affect the aileron trim so if that is out then the aileron trim will out. I just had someone here last week that though his was out of trim, but after setting it up right it was hands off flying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 Before your trim flight to chech what Roger said make sure your instrument panel is level. Put the aircraft on a level surface and place a bubble level on top of the cabin over the spar box spanwise. Make sure the bubble is centered. Now look at your ball on the instrument panel to see if it is centered. If it is not you will need to adjust the panel. Also I had a rudder cable come off the trim pulley once that made the airplane want to turn hard when I let loose of the controls. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coppercity Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 Also the trim indicators can come loose and slide along the cable to a different position, they just screw down onto the cable. This can lead you to think the trims are centered or full left etc. when they are not. Check the rudder center on the ground by setting the trim center then pull the tail down to take the weight off the nose. Make sure the rudder is straight with the vertical stab. Next set the aileron trim to center and flaps to -6, verify the trailing edges of the flaps and ailerons match up with the stick centered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerg1000 Posted November 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 Many use the trims out of sequence and it causes one surface to try and cross control another.I have heard this several times and it's usually the pilot. First you need to put all trims back in the middle. Then start out flying at cruise flat and level. Then adjust the pitch, then adjust the ailerons and last the rudder. Seems most aileron trim wheels are slightly to the right and the rudder is middle to slightly right, but yours may be different so start at the beginning. The rudder will affect the aileron trim so if that is out then the aileron trim will out. I just had someone here last week that though his was out of trim, but after setting it up right it was hands off flying. Hello Roger, Thank you for your response, this problem is apparent on the ground. See my attached pictures to the original msg. and please comment again. Two qualified GA engineers have tried to come to grips with this and have asked for more information that is not in the manual i.e. aileron trim does not get a mention. Niels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerg1000 Posted November 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 Before your trim flight to chech what Roger said make sure your instrument panel is level. Put the aircraft on a level surface and place a bubble level on top of the cabin over the spar box spanwise. Make sure the bubble is centered. Now look at your ball on the instrument panel to see if it is centered. If it is not you will need to adjust the panel. Also I had a rudder cable come off the trim pulley once that made the airplane want to turn hard when I let loose of the controls. Tom Hello Tom, Thank you for the reply but the problem is more basic, the rigging has to be OK on the ground, see pictures attached now to original msg. The points you have mentioned are all valid and have been checked by engineers. Niels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerg1000 Posted November 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 Also the trim indicators can come loose and slide along the cable to a different position, they just screw down onto the cable. This can lead you to think the trims are centered or full left etc. when they are not. Check the rudder center on the ground by setting the trim center then pull the tail down to take the weight off the nose. Make sure the rudder is straight with the vertical stab. Next set the aileron trim to center and flaps to -6, verify the trailing edges of the flaps and ailerons match up with the stick centered. Hello Eric, Thank you for your response, I think you may be right on the money. The ailerons can not be made to be level with the trim in the -12 (-6) Flap position. See pictures now attached to the original msg. The rudder is straight but how do we get the ailrons level with the flaps? Perhaps the trim position pin has moved as you say and is leading us up the proverbial "Garden Path" so to say. Please look at the pictures and comment again. Niels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 Flyerg1000, the FD CTSW Maintenance Manual provides good instruction how to adjust the ailerons. Looks to me that one basically insures that linkages at the wing root are perpendicular and parallel and then loosens the rod ends at the rocker arm and adjusts these to bring the aileron surfaces equal to the flap surfaces. Caution, all work done with control surfaces must be done by certified LSRM or A&P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coppercity Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 That is more deflection then the trim could induce, it looks like it will require a correction to some linkages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 I wouldn't jump into messing with the aileron flap spacing without some knowledge and the maint. manual sitting right in front of you. First you need to make sure the ailerons are in the proper position with the stick. Then put the flaps at zero and you should have approximately 3/8". Remember the ailerons move with the flap positioning. I would be willing to bet the factory didn't mess this up and if you play with this and your not sure what's going on, you will create a much bigger issue than you already have. Like I said in the first post, it is usually the user not trimming correctly that causes this seemingly out of trim issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerg1000 Posted November 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 Flyerg1000, the FD CTSW Maintenance Manual provides good instruction how to adjust the ailerons. Looks to me that one basically insures that linkages at the wing root are perpendicular and parallel and then loosens the rod ends at the rocker arm and adjusts these to bring the aileron surfaces equal to the flap surfaces. Caution, all work done with control surfaces must be done by certified LSRM or A&P. Thank you 'Runtoeat' With the type of registration on the CTLS all work must be done by a licenced engineer in Australia and they have asked for more information re this problem after inspecting the LS and reading the manual. Niels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerg1000 Posted November 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 I wouldn't jump into messing with the aileron flap spacing without some knowledge and the maint. manual sitting right in front of you. First you need to make sure the ailerons are in the proper position with the stick. Then put the flaps at zero and you should have approximately 3/8". Remember the ailerons move with the flap positioning. I would be willing to bet the factory didn't mess this up and if you play with this and your not sure what's going on, you will create a much bigger issue than you already have. Like I said in the first post, it is usually the user not trimming correctly that causes this seemingly out of trim issue. All taken on board Roger The licenced engineer who has worked on the LS has asked for more information re the springs (see pictures). The spring tension appears to be pulling the stick off centre, from vertical, causing one aileron to go "up" and one to go "down" causing the LS to roll as commanded by the ailerons. Niels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 Hi Roger. A question. The manual indicates that the flaps should be at -6 (or -12 in Europe) and the ailerons should be flush with the flaps when stick is centered. You indicate that you put the flaps to zero and then look for 3/8" gap for aileron. Have you found using the "zero" for flaps with 3/8" for aileron best when checking aileron function? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 The ailerons will be flush at -6 and not zero. So they will be about 3/8" off at zero flaps. The aileron move with the different positions of the flaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 Hi Roger. Thanks. Guess that for me, a visual check for ailerons being "flush" with flaps at -6 is a positive and easier check than trying to measure if I've got the proper "gap" when flaps are at zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 Hi Dick, The gap doesn't need to be measured and exact. Just look at it and see if it is close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted December 1, 2011 Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 Roger, I went flying today and checked my ailerons. Flush @ -6 and 3/8" @ zero flaps. Thanks for the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted December 1, 2011 Report Share Posted December 1, 2011 I don't know if it's of any help to you, but I usually land on the right tire first if I'm flying solo. I figure it's because of the unbalanced weight distribution and holding the plane in a slight slip to keep it lined up with the centerline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerg1000 Posted December 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2011 The "right wing low" issue has been rectified with help of "check out procedure" from FD and seems to have been largely due to unequal spring tension. The springs have been adjusted and the problem has gone away, much to my delight. Thank you to all who responded and taken an interest in the posting. Greetings from "Down Under" Niels FD CTLS VH-NKO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogerck Posted December 24, 2012 Report Share Posted December 24, 2012 Niels, What is the "check our proceedure" you refer to? I'd like to check the spring tension on my CTSW. How did you establish the amount of tension for each spring and get equal tension on both? Roger Kuhn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyerg1000 Posted December 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2012 Hello Roger I will reply privately. Compliments of the season from "Down Under" Niels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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