Steven Posted April 15, 2012 Report Share Posted April 15, 2012 This morning my 4 year old CTLS experienced some sort of electrical failure as I tried to start the engine. I flipped the main switch on and all seemed normal (right side panel came on) until I turned the ignition key to start the engine. There was a click and then everything went dead. The engine never cranked. After that everything stayed completely dead even as I flipped the main switch repeatedly off and on and also flipped all the fuses off and on. The battery is fully charged as shown by a green light on the battery minder. Any ideas what this could be ? Perhaps the main switch just blew when the electrical current surged to run the starter motor ? Or could a wire have failed ? If it's simple I could try fixing it myself, although I'd prefer not to. Could it be something complicated that only an experienced CTLS mechanic could fix ? I notice that there is very little detail in the electrical diagrams in the maintenance manual. The plane was fine when I flew it a days ago, so it was only idle for a short period of time before this electrical glitch occurred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Koerner Posted April 15, 2012 Report Share Posted April 15, 2012 Hi Steven, Sorry to hear of your problem. I have a couple of thoughts on this. FIrst, I'm a bit concerned about the use of a Battery Minder. It's not the prescribed device for this particular battery and should be unnecessary. The battery should hold a charge for many months. As to you what you should do now, the first thing - before playing with any wiring - is to determine the state of charge of the battery. The green light on the Battery Minder may be a reasonable indicator under normal circumstances, but in this case you need to measure the voltage across the terminals with a volt meter. It should be very close to 12 volts... but I think you're going to find it's a whole lot lower. Mike Koerner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT4ME Posted April 15, 2012 Report Share Posted April 15, 2012 Providing the battery is good, step two should probably be to check all grounds. Make sure they are clean and "wrench tight". Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted April 15, 2012 Report Share Posted April 15, 2012 Hi Steven, Is the battery 4 years old too? I'm with these guys. Always battery first. It's the easiest to check and confirm and many times the problem. Use a known good battery or jump it if need be. It could be a fuse because of how quick it electrically shut down. There are a couple of fuses behind the panel that are separate from the regular circuit breakers. As hard and fast as this failed my bet isn't a ground, but good to check them any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted April 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2012 Thanks very much for all the responses. It's much appreciated ! I will certainly check the battery and grounds although with a sudden, hard failure like this, it seems much more likely to be a main circuit fuse or bad wire problem, in my opinion (though I have no experience with electrical troubleshooting .... I'm a pilot and owner, not a mechanic). The battery was fine 3 days earlier for a flight and appeared fine when I flipped the master switch on. The hard failure occurred only after I turned the ignition switch to crank the engine (about 10 seconds after I turned on the master). Just some further clarification on the battery - it's my 3rd in 4 years .... they never lasted through the winter here in the northeast. I have an outdoor tie down and typically starting in January the battery had insufficient cold cranking power to turn the engine fast enough for a start. Then by March it was typically nearly dead, so I replaced it seasonally with a new one. A trivial expense compared the cost of the plane and my monthly tie down expense of $325. I'm just north of New York City. Last autumn I got the battery minder and heating coils for the oil drum. The engine started perfectly all winter long. So I can't fault the batter minder .... it provides a ~1.5amp current drip charge .... might not be perfect for the battery, but it sure got me through the winter. I had not been using it for the past few weeks anyway and plugged it in only after the electrical failure to see whether the green indicator would come on and it did. So I really think the battery is ok. I found the wiring diagrams in my owner's binder, however they look very complicated and it's difficult to understand where the myriad of fuses and switches are physically located. Unfortunately I'm rather pessimistic about my own chances for fixing this (haha) and the local maintenance director has been unwilling to have his mechanics service my plane (except "off the books" as a customer assist) due to their lack of certification in light sports planes and also due to the repeated cautious language in the maintenance manuals that states that "Task can be completed only by a responsible individual who has received Flight Design Airplane Operation Training". I had been flying the plane to Mid Island Air, about a 30 minute flight, for all servicing and inspections during the past 4 years, because they sold me the plane and have a fleet of light sport planes that they service, all Rotax, but no CT's. I may have to fly in a mechanic from Woodstock, CT (Flight Design Headquarters) to troubleshoot and fix this - fortunately just a 1 hour flight away, or a 2+ hour drive. But before I do that, I'd at least like to check any fuses on the main circuit - if they're easy to find for a novice like myself - along with the master switch (which was replaced to a better one when the plane was just a year old). I hope the local mechanics are at least willing to provide me with a "customer assist - off the books" to find and replace the fuses - as they recently did to replace the front tire when it went flat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted April 15, 2012 Report Share Posted April 15, 2012 Hi Steve, Until proven otherwise and eliminated suspect the battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted April 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2012 Ok, I'll replace the battery as a first step in troubleshooting. I have an Odyssey PC310 here at home that's in good, but not perfect condition .... will that one suffice or should I order a new one ? I have it on the charger now and it's substantially charged, but not like new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted April 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2012 Luckily I just found that I have a digital multimeter that came with the battery minder. It's model DT830B .... my battery here at home is showing 13 volts. I'll test my plane's battery tomorrow evening .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted April 15, 2012 Report Share Posted April 15, 2012 Hi Steven, You don't even have to replace it. Just jump the battery you have to rule it in or out. The wire coming out of the bottom of the plane goes directly to the positive side of the battery. Then connect the ground to the exhaust pipe. If the plane starts then it's the battery if you still have the problem then you know it's not the battery. Use a battery hooked up to an auto or motorcycle or something. The other battery you have is still in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted April 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2012 Thanks, I didn't realize there's a wire coming out of the bottom of the engine for jump starting. I'm not allowed to bring a car out to the plane, but I'll have a mechanic help me with an attempted jump start. Since I'm making the trip to the airport, is there anything else you would recommend that I can do myself ? Is it easy to get at those fuses behind the panel ? Do they lie on the main circuit ? Can they be reset manually or do they have to be replaced once they blow (fail) ? A secondary question is why they would fail ? Is the master switch itself a possible culprit ? Roger - I really appreciate your expert advice on this and will be glad to compensate you for your time if you like. Just let me know ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted April 15, 2012 Report Share Posted April 15, 2012 Steven, guys like Roger are the experts but some comments - the wire coming out of the bottom of the cowl has a main function to provide a convenient hook up for battery chargers/tenders but this wire can also be used to connect an external 12v battery to jump start the engine. If you have a separate 12v battery that is charged and of sufficient amperage to start the Rotax, this could be carried to the plane and a car would not have to be driven. As Roger states, this simple action could save you a ton of time analyzing your problem if the plane leaps to life with a good battery powering your start system. Some thoughts on the battery minder or "trickle charger". There are probably almost as many ideas about what one should use as there are forum members here. My personal thoughts. I ruined my first battery by using the standard automotive "trickle charger". Standard automotive chargers or battery tenders don't provide the higher charge voltage and special cycle for charging that the AGM (absorbed glass mat) batteries require. Make sure you have the special battery tender needed by going to a good battery supplier, tell them you have a AGM battery and find out what they recommend. Personally, I use a CTEK charger and this is just left on my plane at all times I am not using it. Hook it up and walk away and forget it. It temperature compensates and is fully automatic. I believe these sell for around $55. My link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted April 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 Well I'll be thrilled if it's just a battery problem, but I'm pessimistic ..... though clearly it should be ruled out as a first step which I'll try to do tomorrow evening. Unfortunately I can only imagine that troubleshooting this electrical problem might be very difficult and time consuming even for an experienced CTLS mechanic. The wiring diagrams are very complex and don't provide the physical location of many fuses and switches. So it's literally going to be like "opening a can of worms" - the wires being the worms. Haha. I am very curious about the what the root cause will ultimately be found to be and am glad the failure occurred on the ground rather than in flight .... I imagine the engine would have kept running on its seperate and isolated twin circuits, but I would have lost all the avionics. I do have a hand held radio on board for backup, so would have used that to communicate with the tower at HPN, my home base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tip Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 My bet would be the battery. I went through 3 batteries in my 08 LS the first year. I purchased a charger from Lockwood (which I recommend) and have never had a problem since. My friend's SW wouldn't start one morning and the problem was his automotive battery tender was accidentally switched to 6 volts instead of 12. The battery charger discharged the battery to 6 volts and all he had was a buzz in the headsets. Double check that switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted April 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 I'll keep my fingers crossed. I sure hope it's the battery, the main switch or something else easy to find and fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted April 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 I went to the airport this evening. I expected the main circuit to be dead but to my surprise the symptoms were exactly the same as last time .... I switched the master on and the right side display came on along with the fan. I tested the flaps and those worked, seemingly at regular speed. Then I turned the ignition key, there was a click, then engine never cranked and everything went dead. It stayed dead when I flipped the master switch on and off repeatedly. So now it does seem more like a battery problem .... maybe the attempt to produce enough amps to crank the engine saps the battery of all energy .... then it recovers over many hours so it can at least light up the display again ???? I did have the battery minder back on so that may have charged it back to a bare minimum. I removed the cowling and tested the battery with my multimeter. It did show 13.20 volts, but it may require very little load to generate that reading. It's not a load tester. So I tried a jump with the 2nd battery, but still everything was dead. I asked line service to give me a jump, but they didn't know how to do it without a receptical on the plane. I've ordered a new battery, 2 day express delivery. Hopefully that will do the trick, although these symptoms are puzzling to me, but I have no experience to be a good judge anyway. Just for kicks, I removed the lower center panel and the right side panel to check if I saw any fuses. I didn't see anything that looked like a push button fuse. The wiring diagram shows a 25amp and 30amp fuse on the main circuit but doesn't reveal where they are physically located. Even so, at this point it doesn't seem like fuse blew, since electricity got through the main circuit a second time without a reset of any fuse. Thanks for all the replies. I'll provide another status update on Thursday or Friday evening once I install the new battery. That's something I've done seasonally at this time every year anyway. I have my fingers crossed ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mocfly Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 Did you check the starter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted April 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 At this point I'm just trying to rule in or out the battery as the root cause. A mechanic will have to take over if it's not the battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Koerner Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 Steven, I change my mind. It sounds like your battery is fine. When you turn the ignition switch too much current is going to the starter. as a result a circuit breaker opens to protect the wiring from getting too hot, melting its insulation, shorting and starting a fire. I believe the master switch is the circuit breaker. I think if you push the switch in again you will find the exact same thing will happen: power will come back on until you switch the starter ON and then everything will die. So the question is why is the starter drawing too much current. It appers to be shorted. Instead of the current flowing into one of the terminals on the starter, looping around inside the motor several hundred times and then coming out the other terminal; it has found a short cut. The short results in less resistance and thus more current. The short may be inside the starter itself, perhaps indicating that it got too hot at some point, in which case it has to be replaced, or it may be somehwere along the wire leading to the starter. I would take a good look at the wiring, checking for spots where the insulation looks burnt or where it is chafted from vibrating against something metal. If you can't see anything obvious then someone with some electrical experience and an ohm meter needs to check for shorts in the wires. He can also take a resistance reading across the starter and by compairng this to the resistance across a new starter, can tell you whether the starter motor is burned out or not. I also retract my earlier comment questioning the need for a trickle charger. Please understand that my perspective in coastal Southern California is somewaht different (although it did get down to 60F a couple times this winter). I would be careful though to make sure the charger is well matched to the battery, as mentioned in a previous post. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted April 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 Mike, Thanks for your comments. A starter short circuit sounds plausible except in one regard .... my switch was replaced from the original fuse type switch to a regular flip/flop switch about 3 years ago. The mechanic recommended the upgrade. So the mystery is, if a fuse or circuit breaker is shutting down the circuit, then how is it getting reset without my doing anything ? Are there circuit breakers that automatically reset once they cool down ??? After the failure triggerd by my turning the ignition key, the circuit was completely dead when I flipped the master switch off and on repeatedly. Then I came back a day or two later and the master switch was working again .... the right panel came on, the flaps worked, etc. All was well until I turned the ignition key to crank the engine .... then, for a second time in about 2 days, everything was again dead. And stayed dead while I was there. My hope is that the battery is borderline and that the electrical demand created by turning the ignition key effectively drains it of the minimal charge it has, so then everything fails. Then it takes a day or so to sufficiently recover due to the trickle charger and the whole scenario repeats. That's my theory at this point .... although it's still a mystery that the same battery shows 13.2 volts according my voltmeter and also started the engine easily just a few days before the first failure. My new battery should arrive today or tomorrow. I'll immediately install it and that will either fix the problem or point me elsewhere ..... Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mocfly Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 Steven, Have you called anyone at FDUSA? They are really helpful and as simple a circuit as our system is they should be able to give you some pretty quick guidance. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 Hi Steven, After the battery check and if it is okay then I would think along the lines of a short or bad connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mocfly Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 Steven, Another quick way to check and see if it is in the starter would be to remove the cable going from the starter solenoid to the starter and turn the key to the start position. If the circuit doesn't go dead then my focus is a stator short in the starter. I am saying this without a print for your aircraft in front of me and no knowledge of how your upgraded switch works. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted April 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 Unfortunately it's not a battery problem. I installed the new battery this evening and got the exact same failure. I flipped the master switch on and everything looked normal. I even turned on the avionics and everything electrical. Checked the landing light. It was very bright. Then I turned the ignition key, the engine never cranked but there was a loud click (or even a clunk) and instantly everything went dead. And stayed dead. As per past experience, the electrical system does recover over time. I don't know how long that takes, but then the scenario can be repeated. I'll call Dave at FDUSA tomorrow and ask him how I should proceed. He's their new chief mechanic. As I posted previously, the local mechanics have no light sports maintenance experience and the director of maintenance has not allowed them to work on my plane. Hopefully he'll change his mind if I put him in touch with FDUSA to discuss how they should proceed. Otherwise I'll need a mechanic with the appropriate skill set and light sports certification to drive or fly in to HPN work on my plane. I don't think there'll be an easy solution which makes me a bit gloomy. Does anyone have any ideas what this could be ? A short circuit related to the starter motor sounds plausible as per some prior posts. A mystery is the circuit breaker .... how does that recover by itself over time ? Anyone familier with that kind of breaker in the CTLS ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 Hi Steven, You may want to eliminate the starter solenoid by jumping around it. Just for your info the starter takes a minimum of 70 amps to crank. If it starts by jumping around the solenoid then it's time to rule in or out the ignition switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted April 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 Hi Roger, Thanks for the tip. I will relay it to whomever will be troubleshooting this problem. It won't be me since I'm not a mechanic and the most complex task I've ever completed is replacing the battery. haha. Tomorrow morning I'll try to get the director of maintenance to take on this project and will put him in contact with FDUSA if need be. Thanks again for your ongoing expert commentary. Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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