coppercity Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 Just wanted to share an experience I had this afternoon during a landing in my CTLS. I had been bouncing around AZ all morning flying with various students between Bisbee, Tucson, and Benson. I was on my last stop before heading home to fly with a student in his Cherokee 180. The air was really rough today following a cold front passage late last night. It wasn't really windy but the air was very unstable and bumpy with lots of thermal activity. I set up for a landing on runway 28 at Benson in my CTLS using my standard 15 deg flap setting. Winds were variable between 200 deg and 320 deg at 7 to 14 knots. The approach was a bit of work using a lot of power management to maintain glide slope and speed. The touchdown was descent and uneventful, I was gradually slowing down from touchdown, not really applying brakes just coasting, nose wheel was down at this point and everything felt solid on the ground. I was just reaching for the brake after going to idle when I suddenly found myself 10 feet back in the air and 10 feet right of center and drifting quickly. I immediately jumped on the throttle as I was between 25-30 KIAS, I managed to stay in ground effect get back over centerline and land again. It really got my attention and makes me appreciate the quick response of the Rotax, and the great slow speed handling of the CT! I was glad for being at only 15 flaps, I'm not sure I could have gained back the speed quick enough with a higher flap setting. My guess was a thermal/dust devil crossed the runway at the same time I did giving me some lift when I didn't need it! Moral, never stop flying, always be ready for anything until its back in the hanger or tie-down and don't get complacent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT4ME Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 Today's conditions sucked for sure... Beautiful blue sky and light winds, but it sure was bumpy and unstable. I heard KDVT announce "low-level wind shear several times".. 'Just a reminder on why your hand should stay on the throttle... I had an instructor that harped on it... He was SOOOooo right! Just think, the Rotax 912 SI will respond even faster! Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N89WD Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 Two other item of note would be to bring the flaps up to decay any more lift, and slow way down as soon as possible to taxi speed in those conditions. Just an observation, it's possible you did all those things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 It really got my attention and makes me appreciate the quick response of the Rotax, and the great slow speed handling of the CT! I have found myself in similar situations. The Rotax / CT combo might make recovery possible but the low weight / high lift combo makes that un-commanded take off more likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT4ME Posted April 16, 2012 Report Share Posted April 16, 2012 Hey Charlie Tango, 'Good to see you back... been a while... Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rookie Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 Hey Eric, Sounds to me like that 1000 hrs. flying CT's really served you well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coppercity Posted April 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 Hi Al, There is always room for improvement! I keep replaying it in my mind to think about what I could have done different and more safely. I look forward to the comments from other pilots and thats what is great about this forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 I think these things are situational dependent. One almost has to be there to appreciate the specific circumstances. Your way obviously worked so it's OK and I'm glad to learn from it. It expands my repertoire, which is good. I'm going to share some of my thoughts because they come from the perspective of a tail wheel and glider pilot. My initial reaction (I think) would have been to stuff the nose down as required to make sure I didn't stall. Then, if an acceptably soft landing from that attitude didn't look possible, I'd have added power. I can see right now that one down side of this reaction is that if risks waiting too late to add power. In a glider, one doesn't have power to add. In a tail wheel, if one adds power one ought to seriously -really seriously - think about going around. So, maybe I'm conditioned against power. In any event, thanks for sharing as I've given this some thought and learned from it. I might try some exercises at altitude. But, not for a while. I'm far to busy farming at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Koerner Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 I flip the flaps up to full negative as soon as the wheels touch too, and I leave them up whenever I taxi. I don't put them back down to 15 degrees until just before the power comes forward for takeoff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knolde Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 Just wanted to share an experience I had this afternoon during a landing in my CTLS. I had been bouncing around AZ all morning flying with various students between Bisbee, Tucson, and Benson. I was on my last stop before heading home to fly with a student in his Cherokee 180. The air was really rough today following a cold front passage late last night. It wasn't really windy but the air was very unstable and bumpy with lots of thermal activity. I set up for a landing on runway 28 at Benson in my CTLS using my standard 15 deg flap setting. Winds were variable between 200 deg and 320 deg at 7 to 14 knots. The approach was a bit of work using a lot of power management to maintain glide slope and speed. The touchdown was descent and uneventful, I was gradually slowing down from touchdown, not really applying brakes just coasting, nose wheel was down at this point and everything felt solid on the ground. I was just reaching for the brake after going to idle when I suddenly found myself 10 feet back in the air and 10 feet right of center and drifting quickly. I immediately jumped on the throttle as I was between 25-30 KIAS, I managed to stay in ground effect get back over centerline and land again. It really got my attention and makes me appreciate the quick response of the Rotax, and the great slow speed handling of the CT! I was glad for being at only 15 flaps, I'm not sure I could have gained back the speed quick enough with a higher flap setting. My guess was a thermal/dust devil crossed the runway at the same time I did giving me some lift when I didn't need it! Moral, never stop flying, always be ready for anything until its back in the hanger or tie-down and don't get complacent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knolde Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 Coppercity: I fly from a small airport 4NM from the Gulf of Mexico and prevailing winds are SE or SW with a N/S runway, I feel your pain; we frequently have similar days here. I have also flown into Benson and experienced a similar wind effect. I offer a technique I use, on a hard surfaced runway, do it pretty much as you do, but I am on the brakes earlier. With a 15 degree flap setting and a 10+ kt cross wind, I approach at 60/65 Kts. I also touchdown at approximately that or a speed to hold the centerline; as soon as I touch down I get the nose down and the aileron back into the wind--pretty standard, but I begin pumping the brakes immediately to reduce the rollout speed--point being is that the sooner you get below stall speed, the sooner the airplane cannot generate enough lift to get airborne again. I say this because on grass, I will let the aircraft roll on and drift if there is a tendency to get airborne again, make sure the nose is pointed down. On thursday, this week, I am leaving from L-38 Gonzales, Louisana, refuel in Sonora (SOA) TX, and I plan to RON Deming, MX; and friday to go to San Diego. I mention the SD trip only because of this post and the fact that the forcast is for breezy/windy conditions. So it is good that I get my head straight and revies procedures. See ya, Ken Nolde, N840KN 450hoursand I love it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 I approach at 60/65 Kts. I also touchdown at approximately that or a speed to hold the centerline; See ya, Ken Nolde, N840KN 450hoursand I love it! I have to say I find this speed surprising. You must really "fly it on" to get it on the ground at 60 knots. What power are you carrying at touchdown? Do you do anything different if landing heavy versus light? Gusty versus steady crosswinds? What do you do for elevator control to ensure that you don't get bounced back into the air from a gust? Do you really plant and stick the nosewheel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 I'm with Ken and I know others are too. I approach at 60 with zero or 15 and touch at 50-55. Slight forward stick and on the brakes in bad winds. No bad landings and better overall aircraft control. If you are low and slow and you make a mistake or the wind does something different you are in trouble. The worse the winds then zero flaps without question. Too slow gives no control in bad winds and mushy controls. And no way out with the throttle and speed that slow. I also keep throttle all the way to touch. More solid controls and if something goes wrong it is an immediate save with the throttle and speed. This is my normal everyday landings so with no winds or 25 knots it is the same and is second nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 Ken said touch at 60, you said at 50. That is a lot of difference. I wouldn't fly either one that fast, but at landing speeds a few knots makes quite a difference. My disagreement with this method is so profound that I'm not even going to continue to discuss it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 Back in 2007 we discussed this at length (a long length) because of too many smashed gear. When we went to the McMinnville fly in that year and FD Germany was there they pretty much said the same thing. They even preferred landing with power. I know this because I'm the one that ask these questions of them. All the FD trashed gear has all come from too slow, pumping the stick, trying to land the plane before it was ready and too high a round out above the runway. Too slow is the number one cause because when you get in trouble it's usually all done, but the crying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 I find 1.3 Vso to be just right. When low fuel, solo and without luggage my CTSW can be under 1,000lbs and it can run out of energy really fast. It is a safe bet that the CT will run out of energy faster than other aircraft that you have time in and speed management issues can take a lot more of your attention. If you throw in enough wind shear: I need to add speed to keep 1.3 Vso at or below my minimum speed. My CT's air speed will vary in turbulent condtions enough to where I might need 60-65kts on approach to have adequate margin from stall speed. I need to reduce my flap setting ( 15 degrees works for me ) to increase margin on the nose wheel. The forward stick ( planting the nose wheel ) is something I have never needed to do because I have never run out of rudder authority. Getting below stall speed is no guarantee that you won't balloon. Gusts can : increase lift or rob you of it. yaw you left or right change your pitch attitude, nose up or down pick up a wing Conditions on approach may or may not indicate what you will experience in the runway environment. I'm looking for enough margin to cover that event that might happen. I also find that timing means a lot, if things are not working out I might leave the pattern but stay in the area for a short time hoping for a calmer window. The same is true when trying to land in Mammoth I often land at the far end of the runway where wind shear is less typical or I might land mid field if i sense a window between gusts. I have landed in conditions where my throttle settings over the runway would vary from wide open to fully closed and my speeds varied between 50 and 70 kts and we experienced balloons of hundreds of feet. Landing at high speeds is a safety trade off. There is more risk of injury if you do crash but less chance that you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 Hi Ed, I have seen you back and glad to see it. I knew this particular conversation would suck you back into the fold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
207WF Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 Ken: Try going to flaps -6 on touchdown instead of pumping the brakes. I know, retractable gear training says its a bad idea to touch flaps until off the runway, but I flat spotted a tire once with the brakes when I hit them too soon. WF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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