FlyingMonkey Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Hello... I'm hoping to buy a CTSW sometime in the next 1-2 years, and I'm curious about the useful load. I know what the factory numbers are, and have seen lots of them for sale claiming 720lb empty and 600lb useful, but I think those are basically the factory numbers. I have seen other folks online claiming that those numbers are wildly optimistic and the real world W&B for any particular CTSW is often significantly less. The mission I'm envisioning is to be able to take 400lb of people, reasonable fuel (say for a 3hr leg) and decent baggage. I'd guess 550lb would be the minimum useful load I'd like to see in an airplane I bought, closer to 600lb would be much better. Can ya'll (yes, I'm in the south...) tell me what kind of actual, real world, verified with scales and good W&B calc numbers you see in a CTSW? Also, any information about installed equipment that you think significantly impacts your weight would be helpful. I'd like to hear from the CTLS guys too, but that will probably be outside my price range and I understand their numbers are a bit lower due to additional structural weight. Thanks! Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Hi Andy, The CTSW is lighter than the LS in all cases. The SW weight is usually between 720 - 750 for empty weight. This all depends on the options in the plane. In either model you can easly take two 200 lb people and all the fuel you need. You almost can't get a CT out of CG and will carry 1320+ without batting an eyelash. There isn't another SLSA on the market that I would buy over a CT right now. There is a reason there is 360 CT's flying in the US and climbing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted July 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Hi Andy, The CTSW is lighter than the LS in all cases. The SW weight is usually between 720 - 750 for empty weight. This all depends on the options in the plane. In either model you can easly take two 200 lb people and all the fuel you need. You almost can't get a CT out of CG and will carry 1320+ without batting an eyelash. There isn't another SLSA on the market that I would buy over a CT right now. There is a reason there is 360 CT's flying in the US and climbing. Hey Roger, I've been reading your posts for a while, and I appreciate your experience and wisdom on all things CT. Back in 2009 when I first got my Sport Pilot ticket I had planned to save for a CT. Then I got seduced by the E-AB world and started building a Sonex, which I've been doing for two years (I have the tail and fuselage done). When I started looking objectively at the costs of finishing the Sonex, and the pricing of 2006 CTSWs, I realized for a little more money I could have a much more comfortable and capable (in everything but flat-out speed and aerobatics) aircraft. So I've mothballed the Sonex and am saving for the CT again. I should have just gone with my gut at first and saved some time and expense, LOL. Educational expense, I suppose...and now I have a good idea of how airplanes go together, which is good for any pilot. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 My CTSW was weighed at 745. It is pretty much standard. Has a glass panel, AP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
207WF Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 My 2007 SW weighs 740#. I figure 6+ hours of fuel and 400 pounds. WF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coppercity Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 The 2007 CTSW I had was around 742lbs with half glass and no autopilot and tundra gear, my 2009 CTLS comes in at 789lbs fully loaded with dual glass, autopilot, 696, tundra gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russell Croman Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 '06 CTSW, classic instrument panel with steam gauges (no glass), autopilot, non-tundra gear: 733lb. -Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 my early 2006 CTSW weighs 719lbs. in 2006 we observed that the planes arriving in Carson City where getting progressively heavier over time. There were small modifications to the design even through out the model year. my small wheel pants are an example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanik Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 2006 CTSW, glass, not tundra 730lb even Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted July 11, 2012 Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 2007 CTSW, half glass, tundra, 751#. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted July 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2012 Thanks guys...it looks like 720 - 750 pounds is the normal empty weight for a CTSW, which should work out well for my purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted July 12, 2012 Report Share Posted July 12, 2012 Andy, I think your logic is correct about building the Sonex. I have one friend who started Sonex construction and has now stopped. I believe that hisr final decision to hold up production of the Sonex was after taking a ride in my CTSW and coming to the realization that he could purchase a low hour SW for probably less than what the total cost will be to build his Sonex. What seems to be a large part of this decision is that he will end up with a modified VW engine or similar power plant and then compare this to the Rotax engine in our CT's. Although the cost is much less for a modified VW or similar engine for a Sonex, the total cost for the aircraft comes in right about where one would be if he/she purchased a low hour CTSW with very reliable Rotax. And, as you know, the comparison with home built doesn't just stop with the engine. One other thought is perhaps "special ordering" a new CTSW? I cannot verify but have heard that these can still be purchased from FD Germany as a special order. Not sure about this but would imagine that a SW would be around $120K? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted July 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2012 Andy, I think your logic is correct about building the Sonex. I have one friend who started Sonex construction and has now stopped. I believe that hisr final decision to hold up production of the Sonex was after taking a ride in my CTSW and coming to the realization that he could purchase a low hour SW for probably less than what the total cost will be to build his Sonex. What seems to be a large part of this decision is that he will end up with a modified VW engine or similar power plant and then compare this to the Rotax engine in our CT's. Although the cost is much less for a modified VW or similar engine for a Sonex, the total cost for the aircraft comes in right about where one would be if he/she purchased a low hour CTSW with very reliable Rotax. And, as you know, the comparison with home built doesn't just stop with the engine. One other thought is perhaps "special ordering" a new CTSW? I cannot verify but have heard that these can still be purchased from FD Germany as a special order. Not sure about this but would imagine that a SW would be around $120K? Hey Dick. The Sonex was a *great* education, but in the end there is a LOT of fabrication involved, bending/cutting/drilling your own parts. I'm well past the learning stage, and now make very good parts, but it's just a chore now and not so much fun anymore. If I was building an RV-12 or other airplane with less fabrication it would probably still be fun. I was planning to put a Jabiru 3300 in my Sonex, so it is not the Aerovee VW conversion and an ASTM-certified engine. But with the total cost of completion still around $40K, it makes more sense to buy a used CTSW for $65K - 85K and get a more capable and comfortable (Sonex cockpit is VERY tight for two peeps) airplane. BTW, here's me and the wife (dog Maggie providing ground support) in the Sonex Fuselage: A new SLSA of any description is not in the cards for me. A used CTSW is about at the limit of what I can afford, and that's only going to happen after a year or two of saving. I don't like debt and will minimize any financing needed. I have zero debt at the moment, and I *love* that feeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted July 12, 2012 Report Share Posted July 12, 2012 I would bet someone would buy your Sonex project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted July 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2012 I would bet someone would buy your Sonex project. Yeah, eventually it will get sold. I'm not yet ready mentally to sell it, with the 2+ years of work I have in it. I'll get there eventually. It's actually more done than it looks in that picture, the engine mount and nose gear are on, and the gear mounts for the mains are in place and just need to have the toe-in set and the legs drilled in place. Then the canopy and fuel tank, and the fuselage will be complete. I might finish those tasks so it will be a complete fuse on the gear to sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted July 12, 2012 Report Share Posted July 12, 2012 Andy, great picture. Two of my friends are nearing completion of Sonex aircraft. One is building a Waiex and the other is building the conventional Sonex. You may change your mind once you complete your Sonex and fly it. This is a well designed aircraft and is a little rocket, especially with a Jabiru 3300 in it. You may get 'er done and fly it and have so much flying it you decide to keep it. All depends on the mission desired. If your wife is also a pilot or likes to go with you, having a little space for luggage and some more room might result in eventual purchase of a CT. Like you, I don't want to owe anyone and purchased a used CTSW to stay with this program. Seems lately I've had more interest in my CT from people who must now limit their flying because that can't feed the Lycomings and Continentals the 8 or 9 gallon per hour $6.50 / gallon fuel they require and also those who are trying to decide if they have the stamina to build a plane or buy one ready to fly that's affordable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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