Ed Cesnalis Posted November 8, 2012 Report Share Posted November 8, 2012 How many hose changes resulted in rubber debris in the fuel system? Carbs Fuel Sump Fuel Pump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted November 8, 2012 Report Share Posted November 8, 2012 Hi Ed, I hope this poll doesn't backfire. I hope it gets mechanics to change the way they do a hose change and their techniques. This is more of what this issue is about and not that sole fact of a hose change isn't good. I truly hope it doesn't backfire and want to make people subvert good maintenance practices and not want to do a hose change or any other maint. Procedure out of fear. Any meaning. procedure can I have consequences if not done with care. Some procedures take more attention and technique than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted November 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2012 Hi Roger, I wasn't aware of your discussions back in May and I went into my hose change without any knowledge. I see as I read through the posts that when working on Tony's CT many precautions were taken and future carb inspections are scheduled but when working on my CT the same guy didn't bring up the issue and he left me "good to go." I have 10 hours of flying of the Sierra Nevada mostly as my lines were deteriorating at an alarming rate. I aborted a take off at a mountain airport where there are no landing options. Quotes from Jeremy: This is 100% an example of the lines deteriorating...As you can see there is a rather alarming amount of debris much more than I've seen before... What I'm saying is the existing situation backfired on me, put me at risk and will cost me over $1k. Flight Design issued their safety alert in May and yet months later I fall victim to this known bad hose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT4ME Posted November 8, 2012 Report Share Posted November 8, 2012 CTango... I'm not clear on this... it appears the rubber debris in hose changes come from two different things - debris from deteriorating replacement hose or debris caused by "un-clean practices" (over-broad description). Which one seems to have happened to you? or Both? Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted November 8, 2012 Report Share Posted November 8, 2012 Not all hoses detiriate and you may have gotten something out of the norm. If bad hose was everywhere then hundreds of aircraft not just CT's would be having the same issue. If all hose where bad then all our autos would have the same issue. I have taken the next step and gone to Gates Barricade hose which is superior. It has a completely different lining. Hose that starts of good tends to stay good. It looks in your case that you got extremely unlucky and I'm sorry it will take the time to repair. No one in our group has had a total engine failure as that would mean there was so much debris that it would totally clog both carbs at the same time. The debris usually just starts on one carb and a little at a time to just cause a power reduction. I'm glad you and the plane are back on the ground in one piece. This is one reason that when someone calls me and says they had a power loss on take off, hose change or not, I tell them to always check the carb bowls first. You can buy Gates Barricade standard carb hose on Amazon.com or from an O'Riellys auto parts store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted November 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2012 CTango... I'm not clear on this... it appears the rubber debris in hose changes come from two different things - debris from deteriorating replacement hose or debris caused by "un-clean practices" (over-broad description). Which one seems to have happened to you? or Both? Tim Jeremy said it was "This is 100% an example of the lines deteriorating" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted November 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2012 Not all hoses detiriate and you may have gotten something out of the norm. If bad hose was everywhere then hundreds of aircraft not just CT's would be having the same issue. If all hose where bad then all our autos would have the same issue. I have taken the next step and gone to Gates Barricade hose which is superior. It has a completely different lining. Hose that starts of good tends to stay good. It looks in your case that you got extremely unlucky and I'm sorry it will take the time to repair. No one in our group has had a total engine failure as that would mean there was so much debris that it would totally clog both carbs at the same time. The debris usually just starts on one carb and a little at a time to just cause a power reduction. I'm glad you and the plane are back on the ground in one piece. This is one reason that when someone calls me and says they had a power loss on take off, hose change or not, I tell them to always check the carb bowls first. You can buy Gates Barricade standard carb hose on Amazon.com or from an O'Riellys auto parts store. Roger, I'm not saying all hose is bad or anything like that. I am saying that I got bad hose from CPS and when it was purchased they advised that there was no remaining hose issues. Flight Design told me that when Aircraft Spruce bought CPS the began selling the bad hose again. FD also told me that an SLSA needs to use Rotax hose with a partnumber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted November 8, 2012 Report Share Posted November 8, 2012 Rotax doesn't have fuel hose with a part number and all the Rotax distributors sell something different. From what I have seen CPS is still selling the fuel injection hose. Don't use it. It causes mechanical damage when you push it over the fittings and that flakes off into the fuel system. You could use Aeroquip hose as an alternative. CPS was informed not to use the fuel injection, but didn't heed the warning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy MacGregor Posted November 8, 2012 Report Share Posted November 8, 2012 Hey guys Going into this is was certain I was going to find a small amount of debris in the carbs based on what Ed had told me over the phone. I had explained to him that I though it was probably because of an improper installation and that after flushing the small amount of debris out everything would be ok. As you can see from the pictures above there was a huge amount of rubber flakes found in both carbs, the fuel pump screen and the fuel sump. This is consistent with a line failure since the flakes are showing up in so many parts of the system in such large quantities. I agree with Roger that this is defiantly bad publicly for people advocating the 5yr replacement like I do. But there is a need for it and we have both found many examples. The best fix for Ed is probably switching all lines over to the Gates Barrcade hose since his lines probably won't stop detiriorating at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted November 8, 2012 Report Share Posted November 8, 2012 Hi Jeremy, Agreed, good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C ICEY Posted November 9, 2012 Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 Quote "Hose that starts off good tends to stay good." praise the lord and watch the condition there are many 912 installations that are exterior, exposed to the elements; not tightly cowled and not necessarily further protected by firesleeve. This may be the reason for a five year recommendation from a manufacturer who understands that indeed some of their engines might well be so exposed to troublesome weathering effects. just saying....the wrench is scarier than the legislator ICEY 2003 CT2k 1000hrs, flying on closely monitored condition from Day One. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted November 9, 2012 Report Share Posted November 9, 2012 Gates Barricade is also available at NAPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 Just so some are clear on where issues with hose particles in the carb bowl come from and what stops them here is a picture I borrowed from Mike in the UK on his other post. When one of you get a couple of specs of debris in a carb bowl it had to come from after the outlet on the bottom of the fuel pump along that 14" of hose. The reason is here in the picture. You will notice a fine mesh screen inside the fuel pump. So your specs didn't come from the fuel tank through the instrument panel fuel filter, or through the gascolator with a 100 micron mesh screen or even through the fuel pump. It had to come from past the outlet side of the fuel pump which is the bottom hose. You can just blow this out or circulate fuel from there through to the carb inlet line to clean it out. If you are flying or take off and have a power reduction the carb bowls should be the first place to look to check for debris. The reason we don't usually have an engine loss is that what ever debris there is would have to totally clog both carbs at the same time. It usually only affects one and then not fully. If it totally blocked a carb's fuel flow the resulting engine shake would be very violent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coppercity Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 It looks like the fuel pump and fuel pump vent line has been added to the 5 Year replacement interval in the new Rotax manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tennesseect Posted April 14, 2013 Report Share Posted April 14, 2013 My CTsw began sputtering at full throttle 30-some hours after the 5-year hose change-out. It sounds like the same problem others are having with fuel contamination caused by hose deterioration, but the amount of contaminant I find in the carb bowls is extremely minute. From what I've gathered from the forum my next step is to replace the hose between the fuel pump and the carbs. Has anyone corrected this problem by replacing only this one hose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted April 15, 2013 Report Share Posted April 15, 2013 I wouldn't replace that hose or you may be right back doing the same thing all over again. If the hose is flaking and coming apart it will have a considerable amount in the bowl like Ed's did. If it was a minute amount like you say it was most likely from the install and a few particles broke loose. Clean the carbs and go fly and just keep an eye out for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted May 20, 2013 Report Share Posted May 20, 2013 My CTsw began sputtering at full throttle 30-some hours after the 5-year hose change-out. It sounds like the same problem others are having with fuel contamination caused by hose deterioration, but the amount of contaminant I find in the carb bowls is extremely minute. From what I've gathered from the forum my next step is to replace the hose between the fuel pump and the carbs. Has anyone corrected this problem by replacing only this one hose? Just thought I would update this. A new fuel pump and the problem is fixed. I this case not enough fuel was going through the pump for continued full power operation. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
207WF Posted June 30, 2013 Report Share Posted June 30, 2013 I had to make a precautionary landing over coastal nor cal recently, due to a surging engine at cruise. With a power reduction it ran smoothly. Thanks to Roger's post on this problem and previous experience, I was pretty sure what the problem was. I landed, popped the carb bowls and saw particles in one of the bowls. It looked like the floats on that bowl were sluffing off small pieces. I cleaned it out and continued my trip, ordering new floats at my destination. Put the new floats in and made it smoothly back home. WF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted June 30, 2013 Report Share Posted June 30, 2013 Hi Wayne, That little fix sure comes in handy doesn't it. I just pulled two different sets of carb bowls for an annual after the hose change last year. The bowls were clean. There is no guarantee, but using certain hose and install methods sure help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2013 Wayne and my floats failed about the same time. Should they have been included in the 5 year replacement? If not they obviously should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted June 30, 2013 Report Share Posted June 30, 2013 Hi Ed, The floats aren't included in the 5 year and may last many hundreds of hours, but they can flake once in a blue moon and cause an issue like yours. A good place to do a complete carb rebuild would be at the 1000 hr. inspection with the gearbox. (if you use 91 oct) There is nothing in writing from Rotax on a definite time to do a rebuild. I get carbs sent to me from around the country fairly regular just for this rebuild. I t can make a difference especially if you have old carbs. (more than 1000 hrs. TTSN or 10+ years old) p.s. No chance of rubber contamination either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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