When to pull the 'chute

[FastEddieB]

91.307

 

C Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds—

(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or

(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.

(d) Paragraph c of this section does not apply to—

(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or

(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by—

(i) A certificated flight instructor; or

(ii) An airline transport pilot instructing in accordance with 61.67 of this chapter.

[FastEddieB]

Re: the above - I've always understood it to mean that it only applies if you are carrying a "person other than a crewmember", and that would mean a required crewmember.

 

Solo - not needed. But if any occupant is a non-required crew member, then each occupant, including the pilot, needs a parachute.

[Roger Lee]

Hi Ed,

There are limitations to pitch and spins aren't allowed. Eddie is right. Technically wing overs and spins would be prohibited.

[Ed Cesnalis]

No intentional spins here, but where is the pitch limitation?

[Roger Lee]

Here is Eddie's post from the FARs.

 

We as LSA can not do aerobatics and is stated in some of FD literature so anything more than a 30 degree pitch or 60 degree bank is technically illegal.

 

91.307

 

C Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds—

(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or

(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.

(d) Paragraph c of this section does not apply to—

(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or

(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by—

(i) A certificated flight instructor; or

(ii) An airline transport pilot instructing in accordance with 61.67 of this chapter.

[FastEddieB]

We're a bit far afield, so I spun off another thread to discuss one angle on this discussion:

 

http://ctflier.com/index.php?/topic/1854-a-quick-cautionary-tale/

[Ed Cesnalis]

The pitch limitation is conditional. It doesn't apply solo for instance.

The aerobatic limitation is FD's not LSA.

There is a 60 degree bank limitation but not one in pitch.

 

Rising air caused us to bust the flight levels, you have to adjust your pitch to deal with lift like that. I'm about 8 miles from where Fosset couldn't deal with the sink. I worry about my airspeed and my vertical speed, unusual pitch attitudes make passengers uncomfortable but when you descend through a lee side rotor you have to keep in mind that you can stall at any attitude and more than 30 degrees of pitch can be required to keep from exceeding the critical angle of attack.

 

Its very hard to limit pitch because of environments where a lot of lift and sink exist. It doesn't take mountains to create extreme lift and sink, weather can do it too, even in blue skies. We hosted the FAA here once and they gave a presentation on blue sky micro bursts that convinced me that there is always the possibility of extreme weather that you can't easily sense.

 

I'm not convinced that I am prohibited from practicing various canyon exit maneuvers that exceed 30 degrees in pitch.

 

How do you demonstrate a departure stall in a CT?

[Roger Lee]

I can't believe we generated 7 pages of post just to pull the red handle.

[WmInce]

I can't believe we generated 7 pages of post just to pull the red handle.

To say the least . . . it has been really entertaining.

[Doug G.]

Anything beyond 60 degrees you are required to have a parachute (the pilot, not just the plane). There are also approved aerobatic limits in the CTLS POH.

[Doug G.]

Yeah Roger, it was a simple question.

[sandpiper]

Ed asked "How do you demonstrate a departure stall in a CT?" This is basically how I do it.

 

 

Slow to lift off speed with throttle retarded, liftoff configuration, advance throttle while easing back on the stick, don't allow speed to increase, reach full throttle, keep ball centered, keep pulling on the stick until it stalls, ease off back pressure to regain flying speed, keep wings level with rudder, establish positive rate of climb. To my knowledge you don't even come close to 30 degrees pitch.

[Doug G.]

The crosswind is a "demonstrated" speed. It is not a limit - although I personally treat it as such.

As far as the parachute, the FAA (as far as I know) has not said that the airframe parachute takes the place of the personal chute at more than 60 degrees. Of course, the airframe limit of 60 degrees takes precedence anyway. These are not planes built for aerobatics.

[sandpiper]

Well, here's another expert opinion. The CT is perfectly legal to be flown at night if it is equipped with the night lighting package and flown by an appropriately rated pilot.

[Doug G.]

Yup, lots of people have a lot of experience and knowlege on this site. We don't always agree, but we work on figuring out the facts as the conversation proceeds. This happens to be one (the part on the chute) that people can have a variety of opinions on and not be wrong. It is informative, and I have a much better idea of what I would do than when I first asked the question. Thanks everyone!

[Dan Kent]

Rotax operator's manual pg 2-7 (Sept 1 2012 version) set max bank angle to 40 degrees for the 912 S/ULS. Here's the note underneath:

 

"Up to this value the dry sump lubricating system warrants lubrication in every flight situation."

[FastEddieB]

Rotax operator's manual pg 2-7 (Sept 1 2012 version) set max bank angle to 40 degrees for the 912 S/ULS. Here's the note underneath:

 

"Up to this value the dry sump lubricating system warrants lubrication in every flight situation."

 

That's bizarre.

 

Remember, in a coordinated turn, the engine is "level", for all practical purposes.

 

The only time I can imagine this limitation would be in a slip, and 40° bank would be one helluva slip.

 

Or stationary on a ramp with a 40° angle - also hard to imagine.

 

Thanks for that, though!

[Jim Meade]

Rotax operator's manual pg 2-7 (Sept 1 2012 version) set max bank angle to 40 degrees for the 912 S/ULS. Here's the note underneath:

 

"Up to this value the dry sump lubricating system warrants lubrication in every flight situation."

 

Interesting. But, I assume that the physics only applies if one is not pulling positive g's. If pulling positive g's and the ball is centered, it would seem to me that the oil would always think the bottom of the engine was "down".

 

In other words, the engine doesn't care if you do a loop or a roll as long as you pull positive g's all the way around. Just like a helicopter.

 

It sounds to me like Rotax is writing themselves an out in the case of people who let the oil system lose it's ability to operate normally, such as in prolonged knife edge flight.

[Ed Cesnalis]

I'm trying to imagine a 912 powered aircraft that can maintain knife edge flight.

[FastEddieB]

I'm trying to imagine a 912 powered aircraft that can maintain knife edge flight.

 

Great minds think alike!

 

I was trying to think of some Experimental or Homebuilt aerobatic plane that might be powered by a 912, and it was knife-edged flight that popped into my mind.

 

As far as what the oil in a 912 would do in a coordinated turn beyond 40º, check out this YouTube video:

 

 

Disclaimer - I am not (NOT!!!) advocating this kind of behavior. Most of us are NOT Bob Hoover (even if some maybe think they are!)

[Doug G.]

If you look at other POHs they also say "maximum demonstrated crosswind." The keyword is "demonstrated." Which means the test pilot handled it in these conditions. It is always up to the PIC to determine their own abilities. The Skycatcher uses the same terminology and then states that it is not a limit. It is not a design limit like other airspeeds, it is a demonstrated limit. This is the reason it is separated from the other airspeeds in the AOI. I know of one CFI who claims to have landed in a 30 kt. crosswind...landings are not optional.

[Doug G.]

I agree completely. At this point, with my experience I would not fly with 16 kt crosswinds on landing. And, the others are hard limits (it is just this one that is "demonstrated" partly because it cannot be done with calculation, only flown. All the others are calculated by engineers. There is a difference here.

 

P.S. I am certainly not advocating doing anything outside the limits of the airframe or the regulations. I am the one questioning the use of externally mounted cameras on an SLSA, and even though I now have a GoPro, I will not use it on the outside of the plane, unless the FAA says it is ok.

[Tom Baker]

I'm trying to imagine a 912 powered aircraft that can maintain knife edge flight.

 

We have a clip wing T-Craft here that can fly long enough for the little 90 hp Continental to lose oil pressure in knife edge, but it does have an inverted oil system.

[Doug G.]

Just saw a news report on a Cirrus down in MN the parachute was used. At the same time a small plane seems to have tried to set down on a road. No word on the pilots and passengers.

[Doug G.]

Cirrus folks are OK. Evidently engine issues. The other pilot died. No word on the type of plane. It was not on the road and may have been VFR Into IMC - just speculation based on heavy fog in the area.