FastEddieB Posted May 26, 2013 Report Share Posted May 26, 2013 I met a fellow at Sun 'n' Fun a few years ago and stayed in touch. Then he had a Kolb ultralight. Yesterday he stopped at Copperhill with his new plane, an Aeroprakt A-20 Vista. Had never heard of it. Kind of a slightly cruder Sky Arrow - tailwheel, ROTAX 912, flaperons (which I don't think I've ever flown with before), single handbrake. As I said, I got to fly it from the front. Flew very nicely, with well coordinated controls. Did one landing and it worked out just fine - my first tailwheel landing in an eternity. Got the stick all the way back and kept it there - no drama but I was really on my toes! Fun flying something different - it had been a LONG time! BTW, is it just me or does that tail boom look AWFULLY small diameter? Must be OK, since it didn't fall off! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted May 26, 2013 Report Share Posted May 26, 2013 I met a fellow at Sun 'n' Fun a few years ago and stayed in touch. Then he had a Kolb ultralight. Yesterday he stopped at Copperhill with his new plane, an Aeroprakt A-20 Vista. Had never heard of it. Kind of a slightly cruder Sky Arrow - tailwheel, ROTAX 912, flaperons (which I don't think I've ever flown with before), single handbrake. Didn't fall off - yet :wacko: In reality, it probably never will unless design parameters are exceeded. BTW, is it just me or does that tail boom look AWFULLY small diameter? Must be OK, since it didn't fall off! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 26, 2013 Report Share Posted May 26, 2013 Hi John, Give me a call on the Ipad Facetime. My address has changed use roger@lsamechanic.com. It is my new email too. The ssadiver@cox.net was shut down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted May 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 Here's a little handheld video I attempted with my iPhone 4. My friend was landing from the back seat, not his normal vantage point. Goes to show, yet again, how important it is not to touch down even a little fast in a taildragger! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted May 28, 2013 Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 I don't see what that had to do with touching down fast, it was not touching down with the propper attitude. I have landed a Taylorcraft at over 100 indicated with no problems. That is more than a little over stall speed at 2.5 vso. I did it as a demonstration by taking off, flying the pattern, and landing witout touching the throttle. The landing was very smooth BTW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted May 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 Tom, It was too fast if he was going for a stall landing, hence the three bounces. Of course, that translates into a tad flat as well. He was NOT going for a wheel landing. In any case, my touchdown had been slightly tailwheel first, again what I generally aim for and was without drama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted May 28, 2013 Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 The airplane bounced because he was not in the right attitude with to high rate of descent when he touched down, and not because he was to fast. He may have been to fast for a stall landing, but the reason he was to fast is because he did not get to the right attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted May 29, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2013 Whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted May 29, 2013 Report Share Posted May 29, 2013 Whatever. You were the one trying to make a point that wasn't there. Speed did not make him bounce! If he was fast what did he need to do? Change the attitude by increasing the pitch. Also being at stall speed doesn't mean you won't bounce. You need to have almost no rate of descent. On his landing if he had stopped the rate of descent at touchdown the airplane wouldn't have bounced even though he was to fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 29, 2013 Report Share Posted May 29, 2013 I have to agree with Tom, it was his descent rate that didn't get arrested, not his speed. I can set down at 60 knots and although I have extra ground speed to get rid of on the ground it won't bounce or touch hard unless I fail to arrest the descent rate or I pull the stick back too hard and get back in the air. What is the difference if I take off and hold it on the ground until 60-70 knots. It's just a fast rolling takeoff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted May 29, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2013 You were the one trying to make a point that wasn't there. Speed did not make him bounce! If he was fast what did he need to do? Change the attitude by increasing the pitch. Sorry, this just seems kinda silly. Had the fellow held the plane off a few moments longer before touching down, two things would have happened... 1) He would have had the appropriate pitch, and... 2) He would have been going slower. Guys, I was there. There was practically zero sink when he touched the first time. Whether you want to say he bounced because he was going too fast at touchdown or touched down too flat, I think is a distinction without a difference. I've taught a LOT of pilots tailwheel technique. Here I stand by my statement that he bounced because he touched down just a tad too soon - too fast and without enough pitch - however you want to say it is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted May 29, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2013 I have to agree with Tom, it was his descent rate that didn't get arrested, not his speed. I can set down at 60 knots and although I have extra ground speed to get rid of on the ground it won't bounce or touch hard unless I fail to arrest the descent rate or I pull the stick back too hard and get back in the air. Roger, Bear in mind this was a taildragger, and my friend was not trying to do a wheel landing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted May 29, 2013 Report Share Posted May 29, 2013 Kolbs are great...VERY strong (I think +6/-3g) and can generally lift as much as they weigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 29, 2013 Report Share Posted May 29, 2013 I had a Kolb MarK III taildragger I converted to an ELSA before the CT. It was easy to fly and never had any issues and always had some throttle in to touch to give good tail authority. Never have had a ground loop. It was the first Kolb Mark III that had a 912ULS in it. Before that they were the Rotax 618 which they quit making years ago. It had 10 gals of fuel and I installed another 6 gal. fuel bladder. I flew it all over AZ. It was lots of fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted May 29, 2013 Report Share Posted May 29, 2013 Sorry, this just seems kinda silly. Had the fellow held the plane off a few moments longer before touching down, two things would have happened... 1) He would have had the appropriate pitch, and... 2) He would have been going slower. Guys, I was there. There was practically zero sink when he touched the first time. Whether you want to say he bounced because he was going too fast at touchdown or touched down too flat, I think is a distinction without a difference. I've taught a LOT of pilots tailwheel technique. Here I stand by my statement that he bounced because he touched down just a tad too soon - too fast and without enough pitch - however you want to say it is fine. I don' know if I have taught a "LOT", but I have taught several to fly tailwheel. You were trying to make a point based on recent discussions here on the board. In my opinion your point was off base just like saying a stall landing is going to damage an airplane. There are only 2 ways an airplane can bounce and being too fast isn't one of them. One is hit a bump while on the ground, and the other is to touch down with a positive rate of descent. Both of these can happen above or below stall speed, but it is not caused by the speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted May 29, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2013 You were trying to make a point based on recent discussions here on the board. In all honesty, I really, really, really wasn't. I did not have the prior threads in mind, at all. It had simply been a long, long time since I had flown a taildragger. On my landing I held it off as long as I could and touched down slightly tailwheel first, and my friend thought it was a nice landing. On his, I was reminded of how quickly things can go downhill if you touch down even a little too soon. Which he did, with really very little sink at the moment of touchdown. Maybe I should have commented about what can happen in a taildragger if you land too soon, rather than too fast. Too soon is linked with too fast in my mind, since holding it off longer does result in a slower airspeed. Again, I had no intention of resurrecting any prior discussion on landing speed. Can we get back to just sharing my enjoyment in flying a funky taildragger? Please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted May 29, 2013 Report Share Posted May 29, 2013 I wanted a Kolb for a long time and was anxious to see their new model, forget what it was called, a low wing SLSA looking thing that never materialized I think. I opted for a nosedragger due to the local winds, at least it was red! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted May 29, 2013 Report Share Posted May 29, 2013 Sorry if I ruffled your feathers. Since you were very involved in that earlier discussion I figured you were trying to make a point. Now I will agree that the extra speed will make the bounce bigger, but it doesn't cause the bounce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Could we just say that excessive speed, by an inexperienced pilot, could more easily lead to a landing accident? In some airplanes more than others. The Mooney 201, for instance, is prone to porpoise when landing with excessive speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted May 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Could we just say that excessive speed, by an inexperienced pilot, could more easily lead to a landing accident? In some airplanes more than others. The Mooney 201, for instance, is prone to porpoise when landing with excessive speed. I could. And have. But maybe in another thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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