Ed Cesnalis Posted June 15, 2013 Report Share Posted June 15, 2013 The landing is with 30 degrees and is obvious on base but I needed some power to make the runway so the round out is not dramatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul m Posted June 15, 2013 Report Share Posted June 15, 2013 CT, what's your camera set up? GoPro? How mounted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2013 Gopro, mounted on the bulkhead with flat adheasive mount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mocfly Posted June 15, 2013 Report Share Posted June 15, 2013 That is one heck of a view! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2013 That is one heck of a view! Some view here: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted June 16, 2013 Report Share Posted June 16, 2013 Nice. For all the talk about the weird attitude a CT has when landed with 30° flaps... ...in the video it appears to land just like a "normal" plane as far as I can see. Unless I'm missing something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2013 Nice. For all the talk about the weird attitude a CT has when landed with 30° flaps... ...in the video it appears to land just like a "normal" plane as far as I can see. Unless I'm missing something. Sorry Eddie, thats not a 30 degree landing with a closed throttle. It looks far different if your throttle is closed but my pattern was far to big to just coast in. When turning base look at my EFIS, the attitude is 20 degrees nose down. The pitch flattens out as I apply a little power and the sight picture your looking for isn't there. As you pointed out in one of your videos the wide angle makes the approach look even more flat. I'll likely capture a good 30 degree landing with a closed throttle before I move the camera outside. I should use a more narrow FOW for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted June 16, 2013 Report Share Posted June 16, 2013 Awaiting that video with "baited" breath! Ain't the GoPro fun!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted June 16, 2013 Report Share Posted June 16, 2013 You should be ashamed Ed after 9 pages of no throttle. You used throttle and didn't crash. :lol: :lol: Come on Eddie get after him. (Ed) A man after my own heart. Way to go Ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2013 You should be ashamed Ed after 9 pages of no throttle. You used throttle and didn't crash. :lol: :lol: Come on Eddie get after him. (Ed) A man after my own heart. Way to go Ed. I may have used throttle but my speed was 47kts on base. There was a Citation on downwind at the same time so I had to extend. It was morning and the sun was in my eyes. You can't see the runway from downwind abeam. My dog ate my homework. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted June 16, 2013 Report Share Posted June 16, 2013 :lol: :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted June 16, 2013 Report Share Posted June 16, 2013 I may have used throttle but my speed was 47kts on base. There was a Citation on downwind at the same time so I had to extend. It was morning and the sun was in my eyes. You can't see the runway from downwind abeam. My dog ate my homework. Those are just pathetic excuses. If you check your astrological chart, I think you'll find that Uranus is not in alignment. That probably was the biggest factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mocfly Posted June 16, 2013 Report Share Posted June 16, 2013 I guess you used the configuration that your approach to landing dictated. It looked pretty good from the vantage point the camera provides. I don't see the panel that clear to notice speeds. I really want to see the opposing wind with shear potential departure you described in an earlier post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2013 I guess you used the configuration that your approach to landing dictated. It looked pretty good from the vantage point the camera provides. I don't see the panel that clear to notice speeds. I really want to see the opposing wind with shear potential departure you described in an earlier post. This morning I didn't need any throttle but I have lessons to learn about Gopro battery management. The backup ASI, upper right on my right panel has a white arc that goes from 39kts - 62kts, you can follow that. The fact that the panel is hard to read and the exposures inside and out are so different I am anxious to get the camera outside. I'm finding it pretty hard to demonstrate the wind and shear on a video, I sat near the west sock for a while and the hi def video made it look like a great day for your 1st landing lesson yet when I left the winds were blowing my pickup truck around. I was just having a conversation with the Gopro rep about the nature of winds. I can see the direction and velocity before I take off but I never know how the air will feel until I test it out. Most days I have to fly 50 miles before I find nice air. Of all the different winds we get here its the ~90 degree southerly crosswind that snaps from a headwind to a tailwind very sharply. I've landed in laminar flow headwinds, just not here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2013 ...in the video it appears to land just like a "normal" plane as far as I can see. Unless I'm missing something. 1. look at the pitch attitude after the flaps go down (2:48). You can see a high horizon or no horizon, same on the AI. 2. You can see most of the runway above the glare shield as I do a full stall landing with the stick full aft (39kts on analog ASI). Almost like level is a stall attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Koerner Posted June 17, 2013 Report Share Posted June 17, 2013 Here's a couple photos of Mammoth taken last weekend... from on high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2013 This short video shows the dreaded 15 degree flap landing. The winds were variable from 180 to 360 ( westerly ) and from zero to 20kts. I realized sink 3 times and couldn't fly precisely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted June 18, 2013 Report Share Posted June 18, 2013 I think you'll find that Uranus is not in alignment. Gosh, that just sounds...painful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted June 18, 2013 Report Share Posted June 18, 2013 Gosh, that just sounds...painful. You don't want to know!!! BTW, anyone else seeing strange avatars all of a sudden? Mine suddenly shows as an airspeed indicator, as do several others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted June 18, 2013 Report Share Posted June 18, 2013 Hi Ed, With all the wind and wind changes why don't you use zero flaps with power to the ground. 30 flaps is like carrying a piece of plywood in the wind and letting the wind push it around. Carrying power with a tad more speed gives better control and authority over the control surfaces. When winds are 20-35 that's all I use is zero flaps and power and I have never had any scary moments or lack of solid control. Use your Gopro and shoot a video using those suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2013 Roger, My concern is not mushy controls due to slower speeds, I find the control authority to be quite good at slow speeds. My concerns are 2-fold. Minimizing speed to minimize damage and injury in the case of a mishap Getting thru the phase of the landing sequence where I am vulnerable to being overcome by conditions. #1 motivates me to land with flaps. #2 makes me realize that your method of more speed, more energy and less flaps does not address my biggest concern. To demonstrate my point pretend that I land at 100kts and have precise control due to the excess speed. I still need to slow down to a speed where I am vulnerable. A speed slow enough where my controls are mushy yet fast enough where a small amount of shear (gust) can get me airborne with no real control. I just don't see what all that extra speed bought me except extra risk. Another point is that if I am configured more for a normal landing and decide to touch down I know what to expect because my vulnerable period happens right away. Instead if I am fast and touch down, by the time I slow down to my vulnerable speed the conditions could have changed for the worse. I no longer think about wind by what the windsock alone tells me. Heading and velocity are only a two clues. Downdrafts present a bigger challenge to my CT here at Mammoth than do crosswinds. Old school conventional wisdom, especially high altitude mountain pilots would say that your landing configuration is really a take-off or go around configuration. Here at altitude that would mean to lean for best power as opposed to land full rich. Same with prop and flaps, configure for climb. Zero and reflex would provide too little resistance to the big sink. If the shear is big I want 15 because of the resulting climb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 Ed, We're only talking about 5-7 knots more (just a slight more margin over stall speed). and if throttle is left in a little prop wash over the tail. Really no different than a tail dragger adding power to wash over the tail for control or turning on the ground. I see no additional danger in a mishap with 5 more knots. Even at my weight I can run faster than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 Hi Ed, With all the wind and wind changes why don't you use zero flaps with power to the ground. 30 flaps is like carrying a piece of plywood in the wind and letting the wind push it around. Carrying power with a tad more speed gives better control and authority over the control surfaces. When winds are 20-35 that's all I use is zero flaps and power and I have never had any scary moments or lack of solid control. Excellent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted June 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 Ed, We're only talking about 5-7 knots more (just a slight more margin over stall speed). and if throttle is left in a little prop wash over the tail. Really no different than a tail dragger adding power to wash over the tail for control or turning on the ground. I see no additional danger in a mishap with 5 more knots. Even at my weight I can run faster than that. I understand your frustration. When I told my god-father that I added in 1/2 the gust factor he was truly disgusted. He went on some rant that ended with 'plus another 5kts for the kitchen sink'. 1.3 is 30% over stall speed, what more do you need? I can land my CT in any configuration but I strive for minimum speed. I am one of the older CT owners and fly out of one of the most dangerous airfields and yet when confronted with extreme conditions I find 15 degrees to be all the compromise that I need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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