The recent unpleasantness with law enforcement and pilots

[FlyingMonkey]

Hey guys, I just made a long-ish post on the Sportpilottalk board about the recent militant detentions of pilots by law enforcement. It occurs to me folks here could benefit as well, so here is the post:

-------------------------------

Having been a police officer, I will state without hesitation:

 

1) Never volunteer information to a Law Enforcement Officer (LEO)

 

2) Never consent to a search of yourself, your bags, effects, or vehicles by a LEO. Make them get a warrant or state their probable cause for the search. "You won't give me permission to search, that is suspicious" is not probable cause. Neither is "You just look shifty." Probable cause must be SPECIFIC and REASONABLE. If they decide to search without permission or cause, let them. It will get thrown out of court if they find anything. And in accordance with rule (1), keep your mouth shut and volunteer nothing.

 

LEOs will attempt to bully you, by saying things like "I can keep you standing here for three hours while I get a warrant if you prefer." My answer would be: "Go get it." Often this is a bluff to get you to give consent to search where no cause exists; if they have such an iron clad case that they can get a warrant easily, let them go get it. Of course, if they had probable cause, they would not NEED the warrant...

 

LEO's will often trick you by saying things like "Open the trunk, I'm going to look inside." This sounds like a demand, but in reality is is a request for consent. The proper response is "no sir, I do not consent to any searches." If he has cause he will go through the bag/trunk/whatever without your consent. MAKE THEM DO IT. Don't open anything for them. If they don't have proper cause, they might start talking about what are you hiding, why are you being evasive, or even start yelling at you. Be polite and stand your ground. Just keep repeating "I do not consent to any searches."

 

3) Ask the LEO if you are being detained, or if you are free to go. If he says you are free to go, this is a voluntary encounter. GO. If you are being detained, ask why and keep asking why until you get an answer.

 

4) If a LEO reads you your rights or states you are under suspicion for a crime, say "I want to speak to my lawyer" and THEN SAY NOTHING ELSE. They must stop questioning you at that point, but any statements you make can still be used against you, so DON'T MAKE ANY!!!

 

All of the above advice applies anywhere, including aircraft. The difference is you are required by the FARs to present your pilot's license to any LEO asking to see it while involved in flight operations. You also have to show FAA your AROW docs if asked (ramp check). Other than that, an aircraft is like any other vehicle.

 

Talking to LEOs can NEVER help you, and can often harm you legally. If you don't believe me, listen to a law school professor and a seasoned police detective:[/size][/background][/size][/font]

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

 

Good Luck!

[CT4ME]

Does anything change if this is being done under the supervision of, or directly by, DHS/CBP? In many cases, LEOS have be called by, or locally accompanied by, DHS, under the guise of "national security".

Tim

[FlyingMonkey]

Tim, only if we accept that we are living in a police state. ALL LEOs have to abide by the laws regarding search and seizure and rules of evidence. It is our duty as Americans to assert the rights we have and not be cowed down by the hugely militarized law enforcement apparatus that DHS/CBP has become.

 

The only way any of this changes is if they label you a real national security threat and throw you in some deep dark hole, probably in a foreign country. Of course the way things are going anybody who dissents may get that treatment before long.

[WmInce]

Hey guys, I just made a long-ish post on the Sportpilottalk board about the recent militant detentions of pilots by law enforcement. It occurs to me folks here could benefit as well, so here is the post:

-------------------------------

Having been a police officer, I will state without hesitation:

 

1) Never volunteer information to a Law Enforcement Officer (LEO)

 

2) Never consent to a search of yourself, your bags, effects, or vehicles by a LEO. Make them get a warrant or state their probable cause for the search. "You won't give me permission to search, that is suspicious" is not probable cause. Neither is "You just look shifty." Probable cause must be SPECIFIC and REASONABLE. If they decide to search without permission or cause, let them. It will get thrown out of court if they find anything. And in accordance with rule (1), keep your mouth shut and volunteer nothing.

 

LEOs will attempt to bully you, by saying things like "I can keep you standing here for three hours while I get a warrant if you prefer." My answer would be: "Go get it." Often this is a bluff to get you to give consent to search where no cause exists; if they have such an iron clad case that they can get a warrant easily, let them go get it. Of course, if they had probable cause, they would not NEED the warrant...

 

LEO's will often trick you by saying things like "Open the trunk, I'm going to look inside." This sounds like a demand, but in reality is is a request for consent. The proper response is "no sir, I do not consent to any searches." If he has cause he will go through the bag/trunk/whatever without your consent. MAKE THEM DO IT. Don't open anything for them. If they don't have proper cause, they might start talking about what are you hiding, why are you being evasive, or even start yelling at you. Be polite and stand your ground. Just keep repeating "I do not consent to any searches."

 

3) Ask the LEO if you are being detained, or if you are free to go. If he says you are free to go, this is a voluntary encounter. GO. If you are being detained, ask why and keep asking why until you get an answer.

 

4) If a LEO reads you your rights or states you are under suspicion for a crime, say "I want to speak to my lawyer" and THEN SAY NOTHING ELSE. They must stop questioning you at that point, but any statements you make can still be used against you, so DON'T MAKE ANY!!!

 

All of the above advice applies anywhere, including aircraft. The difference is you are required by the FARs to present your pilot's license to any LEO asking to see it while involved in flight operations. You also have to show FAA your AROW docs if asked (ramp check). Other than that, an aircraft is like any other vehicle.

 

Talking to LEOs can NEVER help you, and can often harm you legally. If you don't believe me, listen to a law school professor and a seasoned police detective:[/size][/background][/size][/font]

 

Good Luck!

 

Those are all good points. Thank you.

 

This may be a little "over the top," but the following footage is pretty educational.

Location is city of Portland, Oregon. Police officers stop law school student.

 

It pays to know your rights.

 

http://youtu.be/F9a_cBxnE5Q

[Duane Jefts]

Mr. Morden and Wm.Ince nice video's - Thank you.

[Jim Meade]

this stuff is scary. It makes me want to go to some "dealing with the police" class.

[Craig]

AOPA has a Checklist you could throw in the cockpit, or put on your iPad in the event you run into some of the overzealous LEO types.

 

http://www.aopa.org/-/media/Files/AOPA/Home/News/All%20News/2013/June/CBPGuidelinesKneeboard.pdf

[Jim Meade]

I have it and note that it is not all correct for a private or higher certificated pilot exercising sport pilot privileges.

[Doug G.]

I know this won't counter some of the things that have been happening, but a few days ago I flew to the International Peace Gardens on the ND/Canada border and ended up with a flat main tire. (No services and cell phones do not work there.) The Border patrol folks were extremely courteous and helpful.

[josjonkers]

I know this won't counter some of the things that have been happening, but a few days ago I flew to the International Peace Gardens on the ND/Canada border and ended up with a flat main tire. (No services and cell phones do not work there.) The Border patrol folks were extremely courteous and helpful.

Which ones? Canuck or USA?

[Doug G.]

US

[Doug G.]

I recently wrote to the AOPA about a webinar that was only open to those who belonged to the Advocacy Branch about the issues discussed in this forum, and of general interest to all pilots. This was the reply I got -

 

Hello Douglas,

 

Thank you for contaacting AOPA with your question. i apologize for the delay in responding, as we have experienced an abnormally high volume of email inquiries lately.

 

Each month the PPS (legal service plan & medical certification speicalist) produce a webinar of interest to PPS members. They alternate between legal and medical issues. The production cost for these is borne by PPS.

 

While the invitation to the webinar is limited to PPS subscribers, anyone can view it. Below is a link to the webinar:

 

https://goto.webcast....jsp?ei=1018857

 

In the next four to sex months or so there will be a follow-up to this webinar that will recover the information contained in the first webinar and bring everyone up to date on any changes. This webinar will be open to all members.

 

Even though AOPA spends a significant sum of money on advocacy, these webinar's are not being used specifically as a fundraiser for the Advocacy branch. Having said that, it is unlikely that any of us would be flying without the fine work done by the Advocacy branch.

 

Regards,

 

 

Pete Arnold, ATP/CFI

Pilot Information Center

AOPA

800-USA-AOPA

 

It is good to have the webinar address, but I feel it is a bit arrogant to say that none of us would be flying without the AOPA Advocacy branch. Do you agree? (They could also use a good spell checker.) Maybe I have not been a pilot or AOPA member long enough to be aware of their importance to the world of aviation.

[sandpiper]

So, you didn't retype their response? This is a direct copy/paste?

 

I know they have a large volume of mail to answer but spell check would have made the response more professional although it may not have caught "sex" since that is a word.

 

As for their claim, I don't know but it seems far fetched. I've been a member since the 1960's. In the past 10 years or so, it seems like they have paid less attention to the little guy whereas EAA seems to have more value for us.

[Doug G.]

Direct copy and paste. And I agree about the EAA.

[Craig]

whereas EAA seems to have more value for us.

 

EAA has recently become a very Warbird focused association (leadership wise), but EAA members are fighting back and I hope they come back to their little guy homebuilder roots, as they have been a great advocate of the little guy historically.

[Doug G.]

I think under the new leadership they are coming back, but I believe they are trying to broaden beyond experimental (Warbirds are technically experimental.) I don't know if it is true everywhere, but young eagle flights around here are not done in experimental planes.

[Jim Meade]

The big home built craze is slowing down around here. I think EAA has to find some new blood. Maybe more LSA? I think Hightower knew we needed a change and Pelton either understands it or soon will. EAA's base is changing. It must change, too.

[Doug G.]

I probably have a different opinion of Hightower than you do - they lost a ton of good people during his tenure there. Even Paul Poberenzy was lamenting the political change at the time. (He came and spoke to our Rainbow class last year.)

There does need to be a change, and I know that in my area there is no other local pilot's group so they accept anyone involved with small planes.

[Jim Meade]

I didn't say anything about Hightower. Where did you get that? I said he saw the need for change. You agree that change is needed. Pelton can come in and ease up but doesn't have to undo everything Hightower did. He rehired a few but not all that were let go.

The EAA can't survive on home builders is what I say. How many around you are building?

[sandpiper]

I am building as are several residents of this airpark. However, this airpark is a concentration of like minded individuals that is home to an active EAA. There are probably 60 RV's here that were built here. Many have built more than one. But, even with a pilot population of about 200, maybe only 10% are currently building.

[Doug G.]

I didn't say anything about Hightower. Where did you get that? I said he saw the need for change.

So you did say something about him, didn't you? Not sure what you are reacting to. I was relating some things I experienced and learned about while he was still there.

[Doug G.]

CT, maybe the confusion comes from the link between Hightower and change. I know EAA needs to change, I don't think all of his changes helped. When Rainbow left in 2012 they were talking about not coming back because of the difficulties that were added.

They are not back this year for the first time since they started the classes. EAA had originally asked them to do the Repairman class. A negative change in my opinion.

[sandpiper]

CT, maybe the confusion comes from the link between Hightower and change. I know EAA needs to change, I don't think all of his changes helped. When Rainbow left in 2012 they were talking about not coming back because of the difficulties that were added.

They are not back this year for the first time since they started the classes. EAA had originally asked them to do the Repairman class. A negative change in my opinion.

 

So, what drove them away?

[Doug G.]

I can only talk a bit about what I heard last year. I u not certain what ended up making the decision for them this year. One issue they had was that there was only one person among their contacts that was still there, and that person left while we were taking the class. I believe this made making arrangements for time and space more difficult.

as I understand it in previous years they had used the hangar next to the classroom for the plane exercises. Our class had to bus to hangar D (which meant Rainbow had to work with equipment in two separate places - which). It absorbed some of our class time and made it difficult to complete some projects since the hangar was not accessible most of the time.

Those are the things I am aware of. I know that they put a ton of work into loading their truck with all their equipment to drive it half way across the country to do this exclusively for EAA members.