My first flight in N509CT

[FlyingMonkey]

That brings up another question...what tools or materials are needed to adjust a Neuform prop? I have an electronic level accurate to 0.1 degree, can use that strapped on the prop, or do I need Eddie's fancy protractor thingie?

[Ed Cesnalis]

I never touched the pitch of my S-LSA Sky Arrow until I converted it to E-LSA....

Once converted to Experimental, virtually all these restrictions go away. Until then keep your eyes open to legalities to stay out of trouble...

 

If your maintenance manual specifies a pitch, and if the reason for the pitch is to limit speed to remain LSA compliant than the adjustment would not be permissable even when converted to E-LSA.

[Runtoeat]

Andy, a suggestion - I built a simple wood fixture which spaces a electronic protractor a consistent distance from the root of the prop and sets consistently on the propellor surface and is a consistent 2/3rds of the way out from the root. I position the prop blade level to ground, position the protractor in this fixture, record the pitch angle and then increase or decrease the pitch "as needed". This provides a relative pitch angle from what was there prior to changing the pitch. If one wishes to do so, the distance out from the root could be set to the Neuform specs and then an absolute "angle-to-spec" could be achieved. The relative angle is all I am interested in for increasing or decreasing engine rpm.

 

A tip also is to keep slight tension on the clamping bolts so the prop can be turned but not loose enough to allow accidental movement if the blade is inadvertantly bumped during adjustment. I may have a picture of my fixture and will post this if I do. I have the clamp-on protractor like Eddie shows but the use of a fixture that positions an electronic protractor consistently on each blade provides better accuracy.

[Ed Cesnalis]

Speed is the SOLUTION to porpoising and bouncing the plane. Stalling the plane too high will make the bounce and multiple bouncing if you really lose control. If you have enough speed you will land much easier and smoother. Think of it as FLYING the plane on the runway instead of DROPPING it onto the runway.

 

We used to have a Mooney, a design with a short wheel base and a reputation for porpoising.

 

You cannot blame a series of bounces or a porpoising event on too little speed for the reason I stated to Roger above. If a stalled airplane bounces it cannot continue to fly because it no longer has flying speed. A plane that is bouncing ( doing multiple landings ) or porpoising has not stalled.

 

Porpoising is the worse case scenario for a bounced landing where the nose wheel contacts first resulting in the mains contacting next and a resulting increase in pitch causing the plane to climb. If the wheel base is short this can happen so fast that the pilots reaction will be too late or out of sync making the problem worse and the cycle continue until stall speed is reached or until the plane is so broken that it cannot continue.

 

This video is a great example, 5 unwanted liftoffs are not the result of too little speed but of too much speed and nosewheel 1st contacts.

 

[sandpiper]

That brings up another question...what tools or materials are needed to adjust a Neuform prop? I have an electronic level accurate to 0.1 degree, can use that strapped on the prop, or do I need Eddie's fancy protractor thingie?

 

 

To do this work on an SLSA you need to be licensed.

 

The protractor Ed shows is the one I have. I would not want to do this work without it.

 

Your electronic level is only good to get the prop blade level with the ground.

 

There are probably many ways to do this but this is the one I know.

 

The Neuform manual gives information including torque to do the work. Two different socket sizes needed.

 

Again, if you are not a LSRM or A&P, you are not authorized to do this work on a SLSA.

[sandpiper]

CT - you speak of the Mooney which is a perfect example of an airplane that can be prone to porpoise accidents WHEN THERE IS TO MUCH SPEED.

 

The Mooney owners site has excellent tutorials on how to land the plane successfully and it is very clears about excess speed being a bad thing.

[sandpiper]

Now I know what to do with that old Buick 8 hood ornament I have. Should I place it near the prop? :blush:

[FlyingMonkey]

My maintenance manual states "refer to propeller manufacturer's manual". Does that mean if it's okay for the user to do in the Neuform manual it's okay? I'm not trying to do anything illegal or dumb here, I'm just asking questions.

[FlyingMonkey]

Tweeking a prop without training or certification is about the worst thing anyone can fantasize to try. Might as well change the airframe too, maybe add a hood ornament.

 

And how to go about obtaining training I wonder? Maybe start by asking questions of people who have done it professionally dozens of times on, I don't know...maybe a website dedicated to the aircraft type in question?

 

Just a thought.

[FastEddieB]

My maintenance manual states "refer to propeller manufacturer's manual". Does that mean if it's okay for the user to do in the Neuform manual it's okay?

 

Even if the answer to that is "yes", the user may still be required to have a licensed mechanic do the adjustment. If the adjustment involves tools, the wrong FAA inspector seeing you futzing with your prop could have legal consequences.

 

Imagine a well-intentioned owner that read somewhere online the benefits of a slightly coarser prop setting on cruise performance. He runs out to the hangar and dials is a few more degrees, settling on 3° more as good place to start.

 

He notices on the next takeoff the engine barely turns 4600 rpm on takeoff. Worse, he can't seem to climb out of ground effect as the runway disappears behind him. You can fill in the rest using your imaginations.

 

None of us would do that, of course. But with owners willy-nilly trying different prop pitches to see what effect they have, it's just a matter of time before someone, somewhere, comes to grief.

 

And, to repeat, once you're away from the factory settings, you're also away from the performance charts in your POH.

 

Andy, you sound to me like a candidate for a conversion to Experimental. Let's hook up some time after Oshkosh and we can discuss the pros and cons.

 

[Tip]

Lockwood in Sebring, FL offers training for Rotax and Flight Design.

[FlyingMonkey]

Sounds good Eddie...I was thinking I wanted to go ELSA at some point, but I wanted to get a year or so of ownership under my belt before seriously considering it.

 

My airplane is making book speeds, so what I am more worried about is climb performance. 600fpm near gross seems low to me, I think the book climb at gross is over 900fpm. Granted it was hotter than a standard atmosphere...

[sandpiper]

My maintenance manual states "refer to propeller manufacturer's manual". Does that mean if it's okay for the user to do in the Neuform manual it's okay? I'm not trying to do anything illegal or dumb here, I'm just asking questions.

 

Andy,

 

But right above that the manual states that the minimum level of certification is "Repairman, Light Sport Aircraft-Maintenance (RLSA-M) or higher".

 

So, your two methods of legal tinkering are get the certificate (minimum $4K and 3 weeks of your time), or go ELSA.

 

I don't need to go ELSA as far as working legally on the beast but may anyway so I will no longer have to ask "mother may I" when I want to do something like add the Dynon autopilot servos, or even simple stuff like carpeting.

 

Even if you go ELSA you will need to get the 16 hour course to do inspections. But, anyone, including a trunk monkey can do work on an experimental.

[FlyingMonkey]

That makes sense, thanks for the interpretation John. All this ownership and maintenance stuff is new to me.

[FastEddieB]

 

 

If your maintenance manual specifies a pitch, and if the reason for the pitch is to limit speed to remain LSA compliant than the adjustment would not be permissable even when converted to E-LSA.

 

That's a good point.

 

I suppose I overlooked it since my Sky Arrow cruises a good 20k shy of the Light Sport limit.

 

I only wish twisting my blades could make that limit an issue!

[Ed Cesnalis]

That's a good point.

 

I suppose I overlooked it since my Sky Arrow cruises a good 20k shy of the Light Sport limit.

 

I only wish twisting my blades could make that limit an issue!

 

The sky arrow has a clean look, what slows it down?

[FastEddieB]

My guess...

 

In a tractor configuration, the engine provides little extra drag over the form drag of the fuselage. In my plane the engine is a huge lump sitting all by its lonesome on top of the wing. That can't help.

 

Plus, in a tractor the prop is slicing into clean, undisturbed air. My prop gets air that's already been scrambled by the engine and the wings - that must hurt efficiency, right?

 

I'm open to any other theories.

 

But at least it looks fast!

[Ed Cesnalis]

After I asked I was thinking that when you are constrained its hard to beat a hi-wing tractor.

[coppercity]

My guess...

 

In a tractor configuration, the engine provides little extra drag over the form drag of the fuselage. In my plane the engine is a huge lump sitting all by its lonesome on top of the wing. That can't help.

 

Plus, in a tractor the prop is slicing into clean, undisturbed air. My prop gets air that's already been scrambled by the engine and the wings - that must hurt efficiency, right?

 

I'm open to any other theories.

 

But at least it looks fast!

 

The UAV I fly is a push me pull me type like a Skymaster. The Rear engine actually provides more thrust than the forward. The single engine service ceiling is much higher with the aft engine. I think the Skymaster may be the same. Perhaps the clean air behind the propellor is more important. Hmm Rutan made lots of pusher canards...coincidence? I think not!

 

Looking fast is a plus though!

[Roger Lee]

Hi Ed's,

 

What I see slowing many down is wing dihedral, fuselage surface material, tractor verses pusher, wing spars and just the general shape, plus anything sticking out.

 

Dihedral, surface material and wing spars are big drags

.

[Doug G.]

Andy, there are advantages and disadvantages to going to E-LSA on your plane, the biggest disadvantage is that the value goes down. Also, technically you cannot fly an experimental plane over a populated area. (I don't know if that is ever enforced.)

On the other hand, taking the 120 hr. repairman class is expensive, but worthwhile since you get hands on experience that would be valuable whether you go to ELSA or not. I think I will have saved close to the cost of the course in about two years with annual inspections, small repairs, and a couple of LOAed items. (Of course I am not including the costs of tools and supplies.) I don't work on anyone else's planes because I am not interested in starting a business. I rely on some of the folks on this forum and a few others I know who have experience with CTs if I need more info, often they know some tricks that make things easier. I think you already have a good sense of who those folks are.

I also, after doing my first annual, have a much better knowlege of the plane.

[FastEddieB]

Also, technically you cannot fly an experimental plane over a populated area

 

Can you point me to that regulation?

 

Thanks.

 

Note: Google led me to 91.319 - I'm checking it out now.

[FastEddieB]

Thanks for bringing this up.

 

From an FAA bulletin posted to the RANS site:

 

B. Experimental, amateur-built aircraft that received a special

airworthiness certificate after May 28, 1998, may be issued operating

limitations which allow flight over densely populated areas once the

following conditions have been met:

(1) The operator has determined that the aircraft has no unsafe or

hazardous operating characteristics or design features; and

(2) The operator has determined that the aircraft is controllable

throughout its normal range of speeds and during all the maneuvers to be

executed in accordance with 14 CFR

section 91.319(.

NOTE: The operating limitations which allow flight over densely

populated areas may be issued prior to the completion of Phase I

testing. The authorization should clearly state that the Phase I

testing must be completed in order to make the authorization valid.

Upon completion of the Phase I testing, the operator need NOT be issued

a separate letter to authorize flight over congested areas.

 

This was issued before there was an E-LSA category. But the intent seems to be that the Operating Limitations issued on conversion may trump 91.319.

 

Let me email the DAR who did my conversion and find out his take on this.

 

[FastEddieB]

BTW, here's the wording in my Operating Limitations:

 

"This aircraft is prohibited from operating in congested airways or over densely populated areas unless directed by air traffic control, or unless sufficient altitude is maintained to effect a safe emergency landing in the event of a power unit failure, without hazard to persons or property on the ground."

 

Sounds a lot like FAR 91.119 for "Minimum Safe Altitudes - General". In part:

 

 

Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:

 

(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.

 

( Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.

 

[sandpiper]

Ed, I do believe, is correct. My airpark is full of Van's RV's. As with my RV-12 E-LSA, there will be a period of time beginning with first flight where they keep you away from built up areas. After that time is flown off, which normally ranges from 25 to 40 hours depending on what you have, you can go anywhere you want. The -12, being an E-LSA as opposed to E-AB, has only 5 hours to fly off.