Fire Extinguishers

[FastEddieB]

Yesterday a Cirrus SR20 crashed. The pilot survived but the passenger, his wife, may have but for the ensuing fire. Horrible to even contemplate.

 

My Cirrus came with a fire extinguisher, my Sky Arrow didn't, and I have yet to install/carry one.

 

Part of my reasoning is that the engine and fuel are both above and/or behind the pilot and passenger, and would be impossible to hit with an extinguisher anyway. Still, it would be nice to have a small, compact extinguisher for a smoldering electrical fire in the panel or cockpit.

 

Thought? Recommendations? Links?

 

Thanks!

[Jim Meade]

AC 20-40D Hand Fire Extinguishers for use in Aircraft

 

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC%2020-42D.pdf

 

Fairly short. Much applies to larger aircraft but the principles may be of use.

 

"3. How to Locate and Mount Hand Fire Extinguisbers in Small Single Engine and

Multiengine Aircraft.

a. Locate hand fire extinguishers so that they are easi ly accessible to the, flight crew and

the passengers.

b. Do not allow hand fire extinguishers to lie loose on shelves, seal back pockets or

seats. Properly mount the hand fire extinguisher to the airframe structure.

c. Aircraft structure and extinguisher mounting brackets should be capable of

withstanding the inertia forces specified in paragraph I c above."

 

There are many FAR references but most are for Part 121 and 135 aircraft and the systems are designed for larger planes so they seem to be of limited applicability.

 

[FlyingMonkey]

An electrical fire can spread quickly, I'd get something for sure.

[FredG]

Aviation Consumer had an article on this in December, 2008. Link below. If link fails, you can search "Aviation Consumer Fire Extinguisher" and find it. Full article can also be found on the H3Raviation web site under the "In the News" tab.

 

http://www.aviationconsumer.com/issues/38_12/safety/5851-1.html

[Jim Meade]

It would seem logical that a fire extinguisher should be reachable from the seated, belted position and would ideally be able to be taken out and used with one hand.

[Jim Meade]

BTW, here is an FAA treatise on Flammability Properties of Aircraft Carbon-Fiber Structural Composite.

http://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/07-57.pdf

 

It is pretty abstruse but the common theme seems to be that it is the resin that burns, not the fiber, and that the pressure of the resin burning expands the fiber and has an effect on structural integrity. It burns at a much lower temperature than does aluminum, but maintains structure as it does. So, it still looks like an airplane but it's not as strong.

 

What I took away from this is that if the airplane burns I'm in pretty bad shape. I will select an extinguisher based on fires in upholstery, wire and wiring, gasoline and other materials such as baggage that are combustible and not worry quite so much about putting out a fire that will feed on the carbon fiber itself and melt the tail off.

 

If anyone has different ideas, I'd be glad to hear them.

[Jim Meade]

BTW, the FAA does not recommend a dry chemical extinguisher. They strongly prefer a halon based extinguisher (although they don't like halon itself for the environmental issues). See AC 20-40D above.

The H3R extinguishers I saw that are rated 2BC are about $140 or so. Pretty hefty price compared with a dry chemical type.

The FAA doesn't like dry chemical because it can put you IFR inside the cockpit.

There's little doubt in my mind that any good extinguisher is better than none and that the physical effects of inhaling the stuff is a lesser evil than falling out of the sky in a burning airplane (especially one that dangles from it's chute letting you roast until it burns the risers off )

[Jim Meade]

The FAA agrees that halon is no good, but says it's better than the alternative. Did you read the AC? It's pretty thorough and probably in terms an old firefighter would relate to.

 

You may be right the most fires happen on the ground. That is a good point. As far as using one in flight, I'd use an extinguisher and other procedures as soon as possible if there was a fire in flight to try to stop it when it was small. Lithium batteries are an in-flight question that comes to mind.

 

On the ground, I agree with you that a big BC extinguisher sounds good. One of my questions is where do I carry one? I'd want to be able to reach it while strapped in, if possible. My plane didn't come with one so I'm going to add it. Back of the seat doesn't impress me. Bashing around the cockpit doesn't excite me. Jamming the rudder pedals sounds like a bummer. In the foot locker is not accessible in all cases. I have some ideas.

[FastEddieB]

A couple threads on the topic recently cropped up on the Pilots of America site, and it reminded me I started this thread but never thanked everyone for their input.

 

I'll probably go with the smallest Halon aircraft unit available. They seem to be just over $100. Something like this...

 

http://www.chiefaircraft.com/hln-a344t.html

 

I think I can mount it so both pilot and passenger could reach it in an emergency.

 

Most of the combustibles - engine, fuel, etc. - are above and/or behind the cockpit, totally inaccessible in flight.

 

But the battery is in the nose cone, ahead of my feet. And, of course, there are all of the electrics and electronics in the panel and cabin. Those would be the kind of ignition sources I'd have some chance of dealing with.

 

So, thanks again - I did not mean to ignore you guys!

 

[FastEddieB]

Thanks.

 

It's clearly a complicated and contentious debate, and one where you have far more experience.

 

Still, on the basis of FAA recommendations, I'm still leaning to the halon for my aircraft.

 

Here's a link to the (very long) FAA document on the matter:

 

http://www.faa.gov/d...r/AC 20-42D.pdf

 

Many on the Pilots of America site post drawbacks to conventional extinguishers being used in planes.

 

Here's a link to that thread:

 

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66139&highlight=extinguisher

 

Open to any comments.

[FlyingMonkey]

Eddie, make sure you open every window, vent, and cabin heater you have before firing off a halon extinguisher in the cockpit. If I had an O2 bottle in the cockpit I'd put the mask or cannula on as well (not near open flames of course!).

[FastEddieB]

This from an AOPA article:

 

"Dry chemical extinguishers, widely available in hardware stores, are not a wise choice for the cockpit. The smothering agent used in the bottle is very corrosive and will eat away at avionics, possibly causing thousands of dollars in unnecessary damage. In addition, the powder that is discharged will easily stick to aircraft windows, potentially blocking vision."

 

Also:

 

"Halon is not very toxic; humans can go without any effects from Halon up to 77% concentration of total air molecules."

 

Full article here:

 

http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/PIC-archive/Aircraft-Ownership/Fire-and-Fire-Extinguishers/AOPA-Online-Members-Only-Aviation-Subject-Report-Fire-Extinguishers-An-Overview.aspx

[Anticept]

There are foam extinguishers...

[WmInce]

The standard fire extinguisher used in cockpit airliners is exclusively Halon.

[FredG]

Eddie, the statement you quoted, "Halon is not very toxic; humans can go without any effects from Halon up to 77% concentration of total air molecules." makes no sense to me (I know, you are only the messenger).

 

If 77% of air was displaced by Halon, and the remaining 23% was still made of air (ie, 21% oxygen), a person would become incapacitated in seconds and die in minutes. I just don't understand the claim.

 

BTW, I keep a small Halon extinguisher in my CT. If I used it, I would open every source of uncontaminated air available to me.

[Anticept]

If you have to use your fire extinguisher, then your plane probably isn't coming out.

[FastEddieB]

Thanks to all who provided input and links.

 

With such varied advice, someone is going to end up feeling like their advice was ignored - that it not the case, and I tried to consider all the info provided while making my choice.

 

In any event, for just over $100 I ended up with:

 

 

Agonized over where to put it. My Sky Arrow is very narrow and I could not find a location where both Karen and I could reach it.

 

So, it ended up here:

 

 

It allowed me to only drill through a (rather thick) carbon fiber "glove box" door - I was really hesitant to drill any structure beyond that.

 

The Sky Arrow has all the fuel and engine behind or above and behind the passenger. The only fire an occupant would have any chance of dealing with would be one in the panel or spreading back from the battery in the nose. I guess if the fire was spreading forward and down from an engine/fuel fire an extinguisher might slow it down, but things would be very, very far gone at that point.

 

Anyway, thanks again for all the input!

[WmInce]

Thanks to all who provided input and links.

 

With such varied advice, someone is going to end up feeling like their advice was ignored - that it not the case, and I tried to consider all the info provided while making my choice.

 

In any event, for just over $100 I ended up with:

 

 

Agonized over where to put it. My Sky Arrow is very narrow and I could not find a location where both Karen and I could reach it.

 

So, it ended up here:

 

 

It allowed me to only drill through a (rather thick) carbon fiber "glove box" door - I was really hesitant to drill any structure beyond that.

 

The Sky Arrow has all the fuel and engine behind or above and behind the passenger. The only fire an occupant would have any chance of dealing with would be one in the panel or spreading back from the battery in the nose. I guess if the fire was spreading forward and down from an engine/fuel fire an extinguisher might slow it down, but things would be very, very far gone at that point.

 

Anyway, thanks again for all the input!

 

Eddie,

 

Which extinguisher is that?

A link for a closer look would be appreciated.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Bill . . . . .

[FastEddieB]

I'll post a link when I get home from walking the dogs.

 

For now, try clicking on the first image - all the data should be there.

[WmInce]

I'll post a link when I get home from walking the dogs.

 

For now, try clicking on the first image - all the data should be there.

 

Thanks Eddie . . . found it.

 

http://www.h3raviation.com/halon_1211.htm