Ed Cesnalis Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 The sight tubes wouldn't have helped ... Once the fuel disappears in the tubes it's impossible to tell how much is actually still in the wings. I ran out of gas driving across the desert. My fuel gauges didn't help because once they read empty I didn't know how much farther I could go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 The sight tubes wouldn't have helped ... Once the fuel disappears in the tubes it's impossible to tell how much is actually still in the wings. Never let your sight tubes run empty! The calibration may be rough but the zero on the bottom means zero. It doesn't matter how much is left in the wings, if you can't see fuel in the sight tubes it is not available to your engine and it doesn't matter. If you know how to manage your remaining fuel with rudder or rudder trim then you would have done so prior to the fuel disappearing from both tubes. If you fly with legal VFR reserves you would not consider getting this low, if not you need help with your decision making. If you make long flights across hostile and unpopulated terrain then you shouldn't let your tubes get past 1/2 empty. It takes both planning and in flight management to make things work out. Headwinds stronger than planned will cut into your reserves if you fly with reserves, if not they will cause you to run out of fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Jefts Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 I'm surprised that someone has not suggested retrofitting all the CT's with a header tank. Then we could all ignore the sight tubes and fly blissfully on into the sunset ... or not! :wacko: :excl: :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Kent Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 When I fly x-country I always put as much fuel on as weight will permit. To me there is no reason not to. Sure performance may suffer a little, but my point of no return virtually doesn't exist following this (3 1/2 hr leg my longest so far). Also my fuel is much cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 I ran out of gas driving across the desert. My fuel gauges didn't help because once they read empty I didn't know how much farther I could go! That analogy fits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 There is no excuse for running out of fuel. If you don't know, don't go. Trying to rationalize such an episode, or near episode, is also a poor choice. Learn from mistakes and don't repeat. Those who cannot do that often continue making poor judgements and that can lead to being a NTSB statistic. As I have posted previously, I learned long ago not to push, or guess, about fuel status. I did make it to an airport so no disaster. Even so, it has never happened again. I could have easily rationalized my behavior, even could have blamed some of it on the plane and manufacturer. But, in the end, I knew the blame was mine alone. Finally, my older, obsolete, CTSW is light enough that I can still have full fuel with 350# in the cabin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 . . . "There is no excuse for running out of fuel. If you don't know, don't go. Trying to rationalize such an episode, or near episode, is also a poor choice. Learn from mistakes and don't repeat. Those who cannot do that often continue making poor judgements and that can lead to being a NTSB statistic. As I have posted previously, I learned long ago not to push, or guess, about fuel status." . . . Concur. Excellent advice. Been there, done that. No matter how strong the evidence, some people just don't get it. In aviation especially, those who justify screw ups, usually become part of a statistical database. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 . . . "The header tank, from live experience, at least gives the plane a reserve that alleviates to a great extent running out of gas." . . . . . . "All the more reason to have the backup header tank there." . . . CTLSi, That type of thinking scares me. Seriously. I think your implication that the header tank is some kind of "backup header tank" is dead wrong. I doubt whether Flight Design intended it to be used or viewed that way. If they did, I hope they have good lawyers. I hope you have changed your mind on that. If that is the only fuel that a pilot has left, then he made an error(s) long before that point. As a practical matter, you should never see that red "low fuel" light come on . . . unless it is being tested or you are in the pattern. That light should be renamed the "you screwed up" light. :huh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted October 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 To get the header tank, you have to also retro to a 912i engine. Ouch, wait, what? There is nothing magical about the header tank that requires a fuel injected engine. It's nothing more than a tank in the line between the main tanks and the engine. The fuel feeding system is independent from the engine itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted October 13, 2013 Report Share Posted October 13, 2013 The sight tubes wouldn't have helped ... Once the fuel disappears in the tubes it's impossible to tell how much is actually still in the wings. ... skirt the hills using thermal air and reduce speed to 4200 rpm and make KVGT Ah, I get it now, you watched both of your sight tubes until they went dry and then determined they were useless and it didn't occur to you that you were out of gas so you pressed on till your last 1.2 gallon tank was low. And you elected to rely on 'thermal air'??? You can't even articulate the concept yet you act as though it's reasonable for you to thermal to your destination in a CTLS? I know you have stated many times that your plane is like a glider but sorry its not at all and your not a glider pilot. Your tendency to blame the design for your poor logic makes me wonder how long before you are filing a law suit blaming the poor design. Do us all a favor and learn to manage the fuel in your fuel system which requires keeping an adequate level in your sight tubes at all times. For you in Nevada that is somewhere about 1/2 full on both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 Excerpt from my Gleim Sport Pilot study booklet under "Aeronautical Decision Making"; "fuel starvation accidents are generally the result of the conscious human error of ignoring minimum fuel reserve requirements because of overconfidence, disregard of applicable regulations, or simple lack of flight planning". Guys....all being said here isn't producing the desired and hoped for results. Personally, I'll not waste any more of my time on this thread and I obviously won't be holding my breath in hopes we don't see any more reports of fuel exhaustion in somone's CT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 Ah, I get it now, you watched both of your sight tubes until they went dry and then determined they were useless and it didn't occur to you that you were out of gas so you pressed on till your last 1.2 gallon tank was low. And you elected to rely on 'thermal air'??? You can't even articulate the concept yet you act as though it's reasonable for you to thermal to your destination in a CTLS? I know you have stated many times that your plane is like a glider but sorry its not at all and your not a glider pilot. Your tendency to blame the design for your poor logic makes me wonder how long before you are filing a law suit blaming the poor design. Do us all a favor and learn to manage the fuel in your fuel system which requires keeping an adequate level in your sight tubes at all times. For you in Nevada that is somewhere about 1/2 full on both sides. Amen. In the interest of safety, this forum is getting closer to the heart of the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 Just had my CTLS come back from a X/C flight with fuel stains running down the top of the fuselage. Tanks were filled a little fuller than normal for the flight. I don't know how much was lost, but the only way you could have known there was a problem would have been by watching the sight tubes. Looking with a mirror I can see there is a kink in the vent line at the coupler, but will have to slide the wing out to find out where the leak is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 Really? The leak was known to you while you flew just looking at the sight tubes? Sure sure. The sight tubes also don't display Mogas well since Mogas is not tinted like 100LL is or Jet A. A clear fluid in those plastic tubes is extra fun. If you can't see the fuel in your tubes then turn on or turn up the lights. Use a flash light if you have to but no reason you should have to. Mo gas is not hard to see, if you don't see the level at a glance move the wing tip up and down and it becomes more obvious. You are missing Tom's point which is that the only way the pilot could have detected this real leak was via the sight tubes. If the leak was sufficient to cause a low fuel condition the pilot would have or in your case could have seen it coming long before it was an emergency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 Really? The leak was known to you while you flew just looking at the sight tubes? Sure sure. The sight tubes also don't display Mogas well since Mogas is not tinted like 100LL is or Jet A. A clear fluid in those plastic tubes is extra fun. I don't know, I wasn't in the airplane. I do know that the fuel level shown on the Dynon is about 5 gallons more that what is actually in the tanks. The flight started with 25 gallon total the Dynon shows 15 gallon left which is about right for the 2.2 hour flight. The fuel level is right in the middle of the sight tubes on both sides, and I just emptied the side with the leak and drained 5 gallons out. That would equate to abiut 10 gallons total left in the plane. That extra 5 gallons had to go somewhere. BTW Jet A is not tinted like 100LL. It is more clear than auto fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 Here is my assessment of the conversation so far. One of us nearly ran out of fuel and now doesn't seem to think there is any way to tell how much fuel is in the plane. The rest of us know how it works and are cautious enough to always have a good reserve when we fly using the sight tubes, dip sticks and common sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted October 14, 2013 Report Share Posted October 14, 2013 dip sticks and common sense. I'm really having a hard time not saying something here. Not about you, Doug, but about someone else. I'll post this before I lose control of my keyboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 The real lesson here is to NOT TRUST THE SIGHT TUBES. that is what was done by both of us before we left for the trip. I'm not sure if I ever flew a plane with sight tubes. Maybe one - a single flight in a Grumman AA1 Yankee. In any event, the lesson I recall being taught was NOT TRUST ANY FUEL GAUGE. I tried to instill that in my students as well. You need to start with a known quantity, then keep a fuel log or otherwise keep track of consumption. To hear you and ussyorktown tell it, this is no longer being taught. Is that true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted October 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 I agree Eddie, a stopwatch is the best fuel management device there is. I got my SP cert in 2009, and I was taught fuel management by mathematics then, I can't imagine that has changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Kent Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 I got my SP license in Mar 2012 and I was not only taught this, but was given a flashlight with a wrist strap on it and I was too visually lay eyes on the amount of fuel in the tank(s), after using the wrist strap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S3flyer Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 I was taught the same as Eddie: calculate fuel consumption starting with a known quantity and cross-reference with visual fuel gauges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 I was taught the same as Eddie: calculate fuel consumption starting with a known quantity and cross-reference with visual fuel gauges. Concur with you guys completely . . . the best fuel management method is calculating a known quantity at a fixed burn rate, which results in the "fuel endurance," which is a time of exhaustion limit. If the Dynon is programed properly, that is what it will calculate for us, with a very high degree of accuracy. From what I understand, the only time we know the exact fuel quantity is when the tanks are topped off. Using the measuring sticks is a rough estimate, only after the attitude of the airplane is determined to be somewhat level. Even then, the stick method is not exact. Howsomever . . . Dynon does not take into consideration if the tanks or plumbing to the fuel transducer is leaking. If there is such a leak, what else do we have left to use, to determine we have some fuel left in the main tanks? Sight tubes! Some may argue that the sight tubes are useless, but one thing they will indicate for sure . . . and that is if there is any fuel left in either tank. If both sight tubes are void of fuel, we can safely assume the tanks are empty. By then . . . we should be on the ground! If not, we will be shortly thereafter, whether we like it or not. Not to be condescending or disrespectful towards anyone, but with regard to the "low fuel" light. It should not be regarded as a "time to refuel" light. By that time, refueling is way overdue, in my humble opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted October 15, 2013 Report Share Posted October 15, 2013 On our first CT forum fly-in in McMinnville, OR I got to see at one point a sky-full of CTs all in groups and all formation flying. Even though it was all white planes ( except Bob and me ) the sky was full of color. As the CTs were turning in formation they were spraying fuel out of their vents and it caused a rainbow effect with the back-light. A beautiful sight to be sure but I don't think a single one of those nb CT pilots new they were losing fuel. When we land with un-even fuel in our tanks do we know why? Is it because one side drains faster than the other? Of is it because of a slip that makes fuel in on side flow towards the engine and towards the other wing while the other wing is venting fuel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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