Safety Officer Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 Hi All, Just a note on using all your mental tools, aircraft instruments and commonsense. This last weekend a CTLS took off from Page, AZ. As it flew the pilot noticed that the fuel in the left wing sight tube was disappearing out of sight, but the right side sight tube did not seem to move. The pilot made a good and cautious decision to land at another airport and check out to see if there was a problem. Upon inspection the right side fuel cap and its receiver were gone. There was just an empty hole. It was out in the wilderness some where. Know one is entirely sure why only the left tank drained and none out of the right unless it had to do with the negative pressure at the fuel hole opening? If he had kept going within minutes he may have been calling for help to get out of the trees and we would have had an incident. The point here is to use all your tools and commonsense to determine flight safety and solve possible in flight issues before it becomes an incident. So the pilot was on his toes by not only checking the instrument panel fuel flow and possible fuel left, but he used other tools at hand (the sight tubes) to help confirm fuel availability and irregularities between fuel tanks. Just because you have enough fuel on board when you took off doesn't mean it's all going where you think. Use all your tools and don't discard any and if in doubt land, look and confirm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 'Good job' to the pilot, the sight tubes are your only visual confirmation. Essential equipment, life saving in this case. (Departing Page is serous business) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Safety Officer Posted October 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 CTLSi It wasn't the fuel cap. It was the entire fuel receiver that's glued into the wing. Had nothing to do with the fuel cap. There was no loss of fuel just the inability of the fuel to flow from the right wing that may have been caused by the pressure differential. Re-read the post. The lesson here is to use all tools including the sight tubes to determine fuel use and levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 ...The loss of fuel was not due to a failure of equipment. The permanently installed 'equipment' departed the aircraft in flight. That qualifies as a failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Good work. Pilot needs to file a NASA ASRS right away. He could be violated for making an unauthorized, unrated repair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT4ME Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 The checklist includes the "fuel caps" not the whole assembly. I doubt checking the glued-in receiver is even part of an annual. It's one of those things that you "look" at... "testing" could be destructive. Which brings to mind the fuel cap assembly itself. Be careful when you, or anybody, fuels the plane. Don't let your fuel canister, or nozzle, exert a "prying" force on the assembly. By holding the canister/nozzle at a 45 degree angle, it is pushing down on one side, but prying up on the other side. A considerable force could be generated with the weight of a 5-6 gallon container, or all the weight of a fuel-truck hose. tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Wrong. The pilot was remiss in not doing a preflight check of his fuel caps. The POH clearly states that the fuel caps must be checked in preflight to make sure they are present, properly seated, and locked. This is an example of pilot error, not pilot quick thinking. The loss of fuel was not due to a failure of equipment. Caps can work themselves loose. Last year, while an instructor and student were flying my plane, the fuel cap ont he left wing departed on takeoff. It was found by line service a few hours later. These caps can seem secure because they become stiff and difficult to turn while installed, giving the impession the seal is tight. This is why the caps have an LOA to be modified on old designs. I am not sure if it is corrected on new designs. The fuel stays in the aircraft though, even without the fuel cap. It's not like lear jets where it can syphin the tanks from negative pressure . Also CTLSi, if i may make a suggestion: when you want to share your opinion on a matter, could you try to avoid confrontational language? Sadly our hobby is full of people with a lot of pride, including myself. I'm more tolerant than most, but the way you wrote your post, it makes you sound condescending, and it's often misinterpreted. Try sharing your opinion in a different way, like saying "I think this is wrong, i suspect the pilot didn't preflight properly," vs "[You are] wrong, the pilot didn't preflight properly!" The phrasing of the former statement shares your opinion and invites debate, while the latter implies the hidden subject (in brackets, which you may or may not have meant), and that you have proof and authority on the matter, therefore everyone should shut up . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Remember this wasn't the just the fuel cap. It was the entire fuel cap insert that the fuel cap goes into. It came unglued and pulled out of the wing. The entire metal cap assembly left the wing and there is no metal left in its place. The fuel cap was still in the insert part. It all came out. Reading the post wasn't about the missing full insert it was about paying attention to the site tubes as part of your fuel assessment. The point was using good practices and commonsense with the sight tubes and instruments to make a good decision to land and rectify the problem before he crash landed from a fuel issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 I would add that unless you are at least 6'6" tall or use a ladder of some sort you cannot see the filler well enough to notice the sealant broken away from the filler surround. I can stick my tanks from the floor of my hangar without being able to inspect the filler. Now that I am aware of this issue I will always check when someone else has filled my plane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robthart Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 This I not the 1st time this has happened, our CTLS lost cap and receiver last year in the same way (posted on this blog with pic's by robthart 1 August 2012), This really should be addressed by FD! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Safety Officer Posted October 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 It's extremely rare and one of the things that should be checked at the annual. A look at the glued edges around the insert. This also doesn't preclude owners during the year from an occasional look on top too.I believe one big factor is fueling with a metal nozzle and usually a heavy one from 100LL or maybe your own refueling station. If you allow the nozzle to angle back it becomes a pry bar and may break the glue loose. Keep the nozzles of any device straight in and not prying on the edges with its weight. I don't believe this is an FD issue, but more of an owner issue that just needs to be brought out for education. This is just something to keep an eye open when fueling. It won't be a surprise and you will see signs before it is an issue IF you look at it occasionally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Remember this wasn't the just the fuel cap. It was the entire fuel cap insert that the fuel cap goes into. It came unglued and pulled out of the wing. The entire metal cap assembly left the wing and there is no metal left in its place. The fuel cap was still in the insert part. It all came out. I wonder if there was any cracking in the receiver sealant/glue. In other words, I wonder if there was *any* sign of the impending failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 This I not the 1st time this has happened, our CTLS lost cap and receiver last year in the same way (posted on this blog with pic's by robthart 1 August 2012), This really should be addressed by FD! I vaguely recall instructions for correcting this, but i don't know if it is a safety directive or a footnote somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt. Abraham Lincoln Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredG Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 FWIW, because of concerns over the strength of the physical attachment of fuel cap receiver fitting (and the integrity of its seal to the wing structure), I try very hard to prevent any object from even touching it while fueling. When adding fuel, I hold the fuel container so that it doesn't touch the fitting at all (the filler nozzle is simply centered and the weight of the container is supported by me). When using an airport pump, I center the filler nozzle and prevent the leveraging force described by CT4ME, above. I try very hard to keep any airport personnel from fueling the airplane without my direct observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Andy, "I wonder if there was any cracking in the receiver sealant/glue. In other words, I wonder if there was *any* sign of the impending failure" Yes It will not be a surprise unless you are un-observant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 I believe the Safety Officer's main point was that you should use your sight tubes and other instruments to monitor fuel, then toss in a dose of good piloting practices, i.e. landing to check when in doubt.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josjonkers Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 I can speculate as to how this could happen. If refueled and the iron fuel hose end got inserted into the fuel opening a slight bit then even a slight tilt from vertical of that end of the hose could have put a strain on the whole fuel assembly where it could have become "unglued" so to speak. That is why I always refuel myself since sometimes the hose end diameter is only slightly smaller than the fuel assembly diameter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Sorry, this reminds me a little of Apple's "antennagate" when Steve Jobs said users were "holding it wrong". In the real world, lineboys (and owners) can and will inevitably be a bit ham-fisted at times. The fuel filler assembly should not be so delicate as to suffer from what is really "normal abuse". Lost your whole fuel filler assembly? You're obviously just fueling it wrong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 I believe the Safety Officer's main pointy was that you should use your sight tubes and other instruments to monitor fuel, then toss in a dose of good piloting practices, i.e. landing to check when in doubt.. But...the sight tubes are useless! Sorry, I could not help myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Sorry, this reminds me a little of Apple's "antennagate" when Steve Jobs said users were "holding it wrong". In the real world, lineboys (and owners) can and will inevitably be a bit ham-fisted at times. The fuel filler assembly should not be so delicate as to suffer from what is really "normal abuse". Lost your whole fuel filler assembly? You're obviously just fueling it wrong! Eddie, I'm sure you would have come un-glued if you say a lineboy leave a filler nozzle hanging from the tank on your Citabria. Damage to fuel tank filler necks has been a problem for much longer than the CT has been around. I have seen cracked fuel tanks near the filler neck in airplanes from Taylorcraft's to Cessna's, and I'm shure there have been others. Simply put you don't let the nozzle twist on the filler neck or you will have problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Meade Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 I was taught over 40 years ago to not let a fuel nozzle put any bending motion on a fuel tank inlet, as Tom says. FWIW, I know personally a man from Galesburg, IL, who had a Cessna C210 where the landing gear wouldn't activate right. So, he made sure the gear was down and locked and then flew the airplane from one airport to the home drome for repair with the gear down. The FAA violated him for flying an airplane that was not working right and he ended up with his certificate suspended. One might think about whether one wanted to fly with tape covering the tank opening, considering the question of whether there was adequate ventilation and whether the tape would hold in all circumstances, including whether it would contain fuel if the plane flipped on landing. If anything had happened, the insurance company might have used that as an excuse to avoid payment of collision or liability claims. In addition, it's worth considering whether one would want to post about this online, although it is granted that the flight was uneventful before it was posted. Just a comment. Others may not agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 FWIW, because of concerns over the strength of the physical attachment of fuel cap receiver fitting (and the integrity of its seal to the wing structure), I try very hard to prevent any object from even touching it while fueling. When adding fuel, I hold the fuel container so that it doesn't touch the fitting at all (the filler nozzle is simply centered and the weight of the container is supported by me). When using an airport pump, I center the filler nozzle and prevent the leveraging force described by CT4ME, above. I try very hard to keep any airport personnel from fueling the airplane without my direct observation. Fred, It's my belief that when fueling, the fuel nozzle should be in contact with the filler neck to prevent a difference in electrical potential. Fuel being poured from a container may create a static build up and a dangerous situation. Containers and fuel funnels should be grounded to the aircraft, which in turn should be grounded, to eliminate any difference in potential to ground. It doesn't matter if they are metal or plastic. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 I always touch my nozzle before I begin filling and I leave it in contact while I fill. Its a very light nozzle so contact doesn't mean pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted October 29, 2013 Report Share Posted October 29, 2013 What do you base your opinion about containers on? A fuel truck is not grounded, only bonded. My containers seal the opening and minimize any exiting fumes. (They draw air from inside the tank as the fuel displaces it.) I know of many situations where people filling motorcycles or garden implements while smoking or while near another source of flame or sparks caused fires, I don't know of any refueling incidents. ( Although I assume there have been some.) These are not nozzle/ container fires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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