WmInce Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 Question: Assuming an airplane is equipped with Dynon Skyview (with integrated autopilot, mode S transponder, ADS-B out module), which would be the best and most practical backup navigation system mounted in the center panel of a CT, an iPad (with WingX Pro or Foreflight) or a Garmin 696/796? All feedback welcomed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 The labor and installation of a garmin in your airplane will be a hell of a lot more expensive. Just grab a tablet and an ADS-B receiver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S4Flier Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 I wouldn't bother with a panel mounted backup if you're going with dual Skyviews with independent GPSs. In this configuration, I'd have an iPhone or iPad (or similar Android devices) as a tertiary backup. With a single Skyview, I'd go with a Garmin 795. Much easier to read in direct sunlight and more stable than general purpose devices. $99/year for VFR data. I'd go the same route for tertiary as above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mocfly Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 Avmap EKPV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul m Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 If you have dual skyviews do you need another backup? If a solo skyview I would vote Garmin first as S3 flyer has suggested assuming you're indifferent to costs. If not, the ipad with external GPS is very cost effective and I think more than adequate as a backup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S4Flier Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 Dual Dynons and the Garmin 796. It won't really matter materially cost-wise in a new plane exceeding $160K but I see have dual Skyviews and a 796 a product of the Department of Redundancy Department. I'd just go with dual Skyviews. But that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted January 1, 2014 Report Share Posted January 1, 2014 One nice thing about the 796 in this case is that it is completely separate from the Skyview system. It is electrically separate, physically separate, and uses a separate OS and firmware. This is not true of two Skyviews, they share a common OS with the same vulnerabilities, and probably share electrical and network connections as well. Is there a real need for the 796 in that setup? Probably not. But there are some advantages in certain failure modes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mocfly Posted January 1, 2014 Report Share Posted January 1, 2014 I feel like I just read a brochure. Oh Andy, how dare you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted January 1, 2014 Report Share Posted January 1, 2014 And if you lose all electrical, the Garmin battery backup will keep it alive, but you wont have PFD or EMS. Oh yea, the Dynons are also battery backed up in the CTLSi, there are two alternators and two batteries. But thats another subject. Only one supplies aircraft power. The power gen can also be used to supply ignition in a failsafe mode if the ignition gen fails. Also, from what I read, the CTLSi only has one battery, so I am curious where they are stuffing the second one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted January 1, 2014 Report Share Posted January 1, 2014 Now you've got me curious... ...how many batteries does a CTLSi have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted January 1, 2014 Report Share Posted January 1, 2014 Hmm...interested to hear what part of my statements are speculation, versus provable fact. CTLSi...glad you don't speculate on equipment you don't use daily, such as all metal airplanes and any flight instrument that is not an EFIS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mocfly Posted January 1, 2014 Report Share Posted January 1, 2014 Nobody should ever speculate on something they don't actually own and fly almost every day. What an idiot. Heaven help us if he ever actually gets a license. I can hardly wait to see the "chute deploy story" in a future posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul m Posted January 1, 2014 Report Share Posted January 1, 2014 Now you've got me curious... ...how many batteries does a CTLSi have? One main battery. Two generators. The second generator is backup for the engine if first one fails. During normal operation the second one powers the electronics. If generator B goes, each Dynon has it's own battery good for about 30 mins. (I need to check if these drain first or main battery first). If both generators go and then main battery drains then engine won't run. Navigation at that point not my main concern. The Garmin is also hooked into aircraft power. It also I believe has a small internal battery. So it seems to me the Garmin and the second dynon give you the same redundancy (acknowledging Andy's point on OS interconnectivity on Dynons.) At the end of the day, this is a VFR plane for God's sake. If electrical power fails you have 30 minutes to get on ground. Whether I have a backup or not won't change my mind to do that. I worry much more that there is only one radio in the plane. If that goes you're scrambling for the handheld. (As an aside the biggest advantages of the Garmin over the iPad is that the Garmin cross fills into the radio and also provides the autopilot with GPS1 for navigation.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted January 1, 2014 Report Share Posted January 1, 2014 One main battery. Then a word of unsolicited advice to CTLSi: Spend every spare moment reviewing your aircraft's POH or Flight Manual prior to your checkride. Would avoid a misstep like: "Oh yea...in the CTLSi, there are two alternators and two batteries". Missing a question on the aircraft's electrical system is probably not enough to fail, but it would start a more critical look into your knowledge of the aircraft and its systems, which you do need to demonstrate to an acceptable level. Task G: ...Operation of Systems (ASEL and ASES) References: FAA-H-8083-23, FAA-H-8083-25; POH/AFM. Objective: To determine that the applicant exhibits satisfactory knowledge of the elements related to the operation of systems on the airplane provided for the flight test by 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. Task H: explaining at least three of the following systems: Primary flight controls and trim. Flaps, leading edge devices, and spoilers. Water rudders (ASES). Powerplant and propeller. Landing gear. Fuel, oil, and hydraulic. Electrical. Avionics. Pitot-static, vacuum/pressure and associated flight instruments. Environmental. Deicing and anti-icing. (bolded mine) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 1, 2014 Report Share Posted January 1, 2014 Id vote Garmin 796. The Garmin 796 is a very robust and well engineered solution (although I hate paying their fees for subscriptions). The touchscreen programming of flight plans in a 796 would actually be your primary GPS to autopilot feed, (in terms of practical use) the Dynon GPS would be your backup (for autopilot use). The Dynon requires you to do a lot of twisting and pushing of the joystick knob to enter a flight plan, the 796 is touch screen and much easier to use. When flying a Dual Skyview system I always use the 796 as primary, the Dynons as back up 1 and 2 for auto pilot. (Which GPS is primary for the autopilot feed is easily selectable with a push of a button on Skyview) Since the Skyview has a backup battery on each screen as does the 796 you have triple redundancy. There is a reason that FD has not taken the Garmin 796 out of the plane yet - Skyview is still evolving. While I love Apple products (and the stock) I personally would rather be using the 796 as primary autopilot feed over Skyview and also rather than relying on the iPad. The 796 was purpose built for flight, the iPad is "adapted". I look forward to the day when Dynon Skyview has a keyboard for data entry. As soon as it does FD can have a very clean 2 screen panel and use the Dynon Com and Intercom thus taking the PM intercom, Garmin Radio and 796 out of the airplane. Until there is a keypad for data entry, I think the 796 is the best option. Because of ease of use and practicality, you'll most likely use the 796 as primary flight plan entry and autopilot feed. Rumor has it the full alphanumeric keypad entry is "next up" on the Skyview enhancement list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer Posted January 1, 2014 Report Share Posted January 1, 2014 Now you've got me curious... ...how many batteries does a CTLSi have? Six if you count the flashlight that lives in the footlocker Happy new year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FastEddieB Posted January 1, 2014 Report Share Posted January 1, 2014 How many batteries does YOUR CT have? Is that a trick question? Mine has one FeIon (non leaded) with TWO alternators. Thanks for clearing that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 Are they using an auxiliary generator installation in the CTLSi like you can do with the 912ULS? According to the rotax 912is manual, one built in generator is ignition only. It cannot be used to supply aircraft power. The second generator is for supplying the aircraft power, and has the ability to supply the ignition system in the event of the primary ignition generator failing. Here is one of my posts from a previous thread with references, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Kent Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 When I ordered my Sting, I intentionally omitted the Garmin, as I thought I would save the $3,000 and buy an iPad for current charts and flight planning (and 3rd level of GPS backup). I did get the dual SV system and it has been rock solid for the past 2 years and about 190 hours. When I fly now I'll usually turn on the iPad just to make sure it locks on should I need it, but it's main function in the air is to play music. When I took delievery of the plane I believe the Dynon software version was 3.0, and yes the GPS was lacking many "cultural features" (Dynon's term) but they have continually added them. I'm sure it is not up to where Garmin is, but there are no annual fees and they are still adding to the maps. I broke down on Black Friday and purchased the Seattle Avionics airport diagram for the SV (2 years for $99). It is a neat feature, but not really necessary for my VFR flying. As far as the backup batteries, the system switches over to them when the main power drops below 10 volts. Version 6.0 of the software built in a backup battery testing routine that records when the test took place and whether it passed or not (users manual says the battery should last an hour, bu the pass standard in the software is 45 minutes) and will remind you the next year when it is due again. I did the test about 10 flying hours between tests to make sure the first tested battery was fully charged before I tested the 2nd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlennM Posted January 31, 2014 Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 Speaking of Dynon failures, do the newer Dynons split the engine sensor leads between each unit? Or do they connect the engine sensors to one and transfer the data to the other like the older Dynons? If that is the case, then if the engine Dynon power supply fails, you lose all of your engine data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted January 31, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2014 The EMS Connects to a common hub. Each SkyView has it's own connection to the same common hub. If either Skyview fails, the other unit has access to the same EMS data. Additionally, the ShyViews are also connected with each other, via an Ethernet cable, to share data between them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlennM Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 That is a nice improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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