procharger Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 If you haven't seen this plane yet take a look , auto folding wings, load on trailer or drive it right in the water, one of the coolest planes out there. Close to a CT in performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Been in development since before the LSA rules were finalized, yet they still don't have an airplane for sale. This in spite of getting a special weight exemption from the FAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 It looks cool, but I disagree with the performance. In the ballpark speed, but very short range. Even a CT with floats performs better. Icon owners who leave the plane in the water are going to find out the problem with the hull design soon enough though, especially any kind of saltwater operations. The same problems that boat owners know all too well. I prefer floats for this reason. It has a lot of novelty though, and I do like seaplanes! I wouldn't mind tooling about in one, but I don't want to own one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Cirrus are fiberglass not carbon fiber. Seems to me a more fair comparison would be to a CT on floats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 The website implies they are in preproduction. Which usually means another iteration of design and tooling modifications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT4ME Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 The plane looks nice...very nice. But I have problems with the company and the marketing. They've been pushing the "jetski of the sky" concept and it's not realistic. A tiny, tiny, fraction of the population have what it takes to start pilot training, and about 20% of those ever make it. And then factor in cost, and competition. The company is a whole 'nother thing. Unless there is some sort of Rich Fairy Godmother in the company, who wants to lose hundreds of millions of dollars, the company must make money. In the last 7 or so years, they've burned through, what, $60-100 million? Without producing one airplane for sale. So let's say they make $30,000 profit on each plane. They will have to sell ONE THOUSAND planes to make back $30 million. If someone can explain how a company can operate this way, please chime in. Tim PS. Dan Johnson (bydanjohnson.com) has been reporting about numerous amphibious LSAs, many which were on paper two years ago and they're already in production. Many of these planes have similar designs as the Icon, others use more traditional designs. With all this competition in a small market, there is going to be some serious contraction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 Excellent analysis Tim...the numbers don't lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdarza Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 No doubt a beautiful aircraft. Look forward to hopefully seeing this in the air someday SOON. If i had placed a reservation deposit with the company, i would be quite nervous at this stage. As to the CTSW - anyone know of any that have floats? and if so the maker/brand. I heard the CTLS was the only one approved but not the CTSW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coppercity Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 One of our students is in line for one. I think he said he was around number 77 and was scheduled for a 3rd quarter 2015 delivery. To get one of the first 100 off the line I think a 100k deposit was required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 No doubt a beautiful aircraft. Look forward to hopefully seeing this in the air someday SOON. If i had placed a reservation deposit with the company, i would be quite nervous at this stage. As to the CTSW - anyone know of any that have floats? and if so the maker/brand. I heard the CTLS was the only one approved but not the CTSW. There are members here who have float equipped CTSW. The floats don't come cheap though, expect to pay 30k for everything from engineering, to mechanics, and for recertification. Also, you need your S.E.S. rating if you plan to land it on water (of course, why have floats then if you won't land it on water?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
procharger Posted February 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 With retracts why would you leave this plane in water load it up take it home put it in the barn no hanger rent I am down with that. Haul it to you vacation spot water or land go flying put it back on trailer, I want to water ski behind that thing. Can't do that with my CT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Znurtdog Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 >>> I want to water ski behind that thing. Can't do that with my CT. Ha! Please video that, and I hope you use a long rope, use earplugs and a mask..and have tolerant neighbors! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 With retracts why would you leave this plane in water load it up take it home put it in the barn no hanger rent I am down with that. Haul it to you vacation spot water or land go flying put it back on trailer, I want to water ski behind that thing. Can't do that with my CT. Yeah you can if you put floats on it. CT floats are amphibious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT4ME Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 I want to water ski behind that thing. There's this thing... called the FAA... that ain't gonna fly with them... imagine the tow rope snapping back into the prop... and a million other things they won't like. That's the problem with the way they've been marketing it... heck it's just a flying jet ski. You're gonna go out to the lake and just zip around without a care in the World... not. tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 As to the CTSW - anyone know of any that have floats? here is one... Advanced ultralight in Canada ~ 880 lbs empty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 There's this thing... called the FAA... that ain't gonna fly with them... imagine the tow rope snapping back into the prop... and a million other things they won't like. That's the problem with the way they've been marketing it... heck it's just a flying jet ski. You're gonna go out to the lake and just zip around without a care in the World... not. tim It's not the FAA's jurisdiction until you leave the ground/water. You can do whatever you want on the ground, and they can't do a thing about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT4ME Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 Well, shut my mouth!!!... but still don't think it would be allowed... Don't give Roger any ideas for the Page Fly-in... :huh: tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 The plane looks nice...very nice. But I have problems with the company and the marketing. They've been pushing the "jetski of the sky" concept and it's not realistic. A tiny, tiny, fraction of the population have what it takes to start pilot training, and about 20% of those ever make it. And then factor in cost, and competition. The company is a whole 'nother thing. Unless there is some sort of Rich Fairy Godmother in the company, who wants to lose hundreds of millions of dollars, the company must make money. In the last 7 or so years, they've burned through, what, $60-100 million? Without producing one airplane for sale. So let's say they make $30,000 profit on each plane. They will have to sell ONE THOUSAND planes to make back $30 million. If someone can explain how a company can operate this way, please chime in. Tim PS. Dan Johnson (bydanjohnson.com) has been reporting about numerous amphibious LSAs, many which were on paper two years ago and they're already in production. Many of these planes have similar designs as the Icon, others use more traditional designs. With all this competition in a small market, there is going to be some serious contraction. Just about sums it up. Good post Tim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted February 2, 2014 Report Share Posted February 2, 2014 Well, shut my mouth!!!... but still don't think it would be allowed... tim It is my opinion that risky behavior should be regulated to prevent endangerment to non-participating parties. Beyond that, if you and your friend wants to fly upside down low to the ground over your own property, go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlennM Posted February 6, 2014 Report Share Posted February 6, 2014 There are members here who have float equipped CTSW. The floats don't come cheap though, expect to pay 30k for everything from engineering, to mechanics, and for recertification. Also, you need your S.E.S. rating if you plan to land it on water (of course, why have floats then if you won't land it on water?) I heard the same thing as cdarza from the guy selling the floats at the Flight Design booth at Sun N Fun. He said the CTSW does not have enough force generated by the stabilator to flare sufficiently with the floats. I wanted to give him a sale, but I left disappointed. I find that statement hard to accept, but why argue? I have not done any testing or calcs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted February 6, 2014 Report Share Posted February 6, 2014 It is my understanding that you don't really flare with floats anyways (not to the degree with standard gear), you use airspeed to control your descent speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpiper Posted February 6, 2014 Report Share Posted February 6, 2014 It is my understanding that you don't really flare with floats anyways (not to the degree with standard gear), you use airspeed to control your descent speed. It depends. A "normal" float landing would be kind of like a wheel landing with a tail dragger. Provided you want to keep it on the step and step taxi to where you want to park. But, you also need to be able to land slower if you need to get stopped soonest. And you need to be able to land near stall speed in rough water. And for sure you need enough stabilator nose up authority to not stub the nose of the floats. Otherwise you could find yourself swimming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted February 6, 2014 Report Share Posted February 6, 2014 Fair enough! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdarza Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 I heard the same thing as cdarza from the guy selling the floats at the Flight Design booth at Sun N Fun. He said the CTSW does not have enough force generated by the stabilator to flare sufficiently with the floats. I wanted to give him a sale, but I left disappointed. I find that statement hard to accept, but why argue? I have not done any testing or calcs. I was actually told: "FD won't certify the SW for floats. It does not have have the wing stress on the airplane. So the SW will never be approved for floats." I too felt disappointed when i read this - but, am still looking that there may be a way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques Posted February 7, 2014 Report Share Posted February 7, 2014 http://www.oxai.com.cn/en/Feature.html look at what's coming from...guess where Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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