Deadstick Landing

[FastEddieB]

This may have made the rounds, but I just stumbled across it:

 

 

 :shock: 

 

Discuss!  :wink: 

[Anticept]

We've got Rickenbacker airport with it's giant runways, and I've been planning on doing some real deadstick practice, with actual engine off. Problem is, I have to do it at a time where there's no traffic, and there's almost always traffic at rickenbacker

[Flying Bozo]

Jerk!.  Spin and no chutes an FAR violation, and on camera. He admits that it is a new deal landing downwind dead stick. I am surprised that the passenger didn't have a problem especially when he said OH OH a couple times.

[Jim]

Showoff.

[FastEddieB]

There are many time in flying where I'm 90% sure I could do something successfully.

 

Even 99% sometimes. Or 99.9%.

 

But that means one out of ten, one hundred or even one thousand times I will NOT be successful.

 

Stay at the flying game long enough and these low-probability failures eventually become near certainties to rise up a bite you in the ass.

 

In this case, a last minute truck or animal or other plane on the runway could have been a real handful to deal with.

 

And doing this with an unsuspecting passenger borders on the criminal - IMHO, of course!

[Jim]

It goes back to asking yourself "would I like to have to explain this at a NTSB hearing".

[Jim Meade]

I haven't done a dead stick landing with my Aeronca Champ, but I've done 15-20 with the CTSW, several with a knowing pilot passenger. There is no doubt in my mind I could do one with my Champ.

 

As to restarting in the air, I've restarted the CTSW on the electric starter half a dozen or more times, at least once when the airplane had been gliding long enough that the oil was under 120°F. As these have all been practice, all but one (the cold one) were right over an airport.

 

On the other hand, restarting my 65 hp 7AC, just like the plane in the video it has no electric, would involve getting the prop to windmilling, which would probably be pretty close to Vne. I have not started the CTSW by windmilling. Haven't started any airplane that way.

 

It is certainly possible to start the 65 hp Continental in the air, as shown in this photo. However, the door configuration on my Champ would preclude getting out of the cockpit as this J3 occupant did. (There is an STC to fly the Champ with the door off, though, so maybe it's in the future.

 

Parachutes? I didn't see any evidence that the occupants weren't wearing parachutes. I'm not sure what parachute configuration the L16 (wartime brother of the 7AC) used but it could have been seat packs.

 

That wasn't much of a spin, although I guess the FAA would call it technically a spin as it involved a stall with yaw.

 

Downwind? Not much wind at all that was evident, and on grass the roll-out and stopping would have been pretty gentle. Faster touch-down speed? You guys like to land at 10 kias over book, anyway, why would it bother you?

 

You guys ought to relax a little.

 

Let's see if I can embed a photo

 

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t258/wacojoe/CubStarter.jpg

[FlyingMonkey]

 

Parachutes? I didn't see any evidence that the occupants weren't wearing parachutes. I'm not sure what parachute configuration the L16 (wartime brother of the 7AC) used but it could have been seat packs.

 

That wasn't much of a spin, although I guess the FAA would call it technically a spin as it involved a stall with yaw.

 

 

 

I don't know if that would qualify, since it looked like a full turn, but incipient, not fully developed spins don't require parachutes...

[FastEddieB]

A bit of a hijack, but this is what the law says:

 

© Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds—

(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or

(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.

(d) Paragraph © of this section does not apply to—

(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or

(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by—

(i) A certificated flight instructor...

[Tom Baker]

I have shut the engine off in a Taylorcraft with a 65 Continental and no starter. It takes about 125 mph and 1000 feet to get it restarted. I always have done this over an airport with the restart being done high enough to provide room to plan for a dead stick landing if it didn't start. I have never had to make a dead stick landing. I will say that there are things I wouldn't do now that I would have done when I was younger.

[FlyingMonkey]

 

A bit of a hijack, but this is what the law says:

 

© Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds—

(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or

(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.

(d) Paragraph © of this section does not apply to—

(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or

(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by—

(i) A certificated flight instructor...

 

 

Hmm...even an incipient spin might fall under the pitch limitations, then.

[Tom Baker]

For some reason it is not letting me quote a post, but to Eddie's posting of the regulations. From the short video clip we do not know the intended purpose of the flight, but I would consider it highly suspect.

[josjonkers]

There are many time in flying where I'm 90% sure I could do something successfully.

 

Even 99% sometimes. Or 99.9%.

 

But that means one out of ten, one hundred or even one thousand times I will NOT be successful.

 

Stay at the flying game long enough and these low-probability failures eventually become near certainties to rise up a bite you in the ass.

 

In this case, a last minute truck or animal or other plane on the runway could have been a real handful to deal with.

 

And doing this with an unsuspecting passenger borders on the criminal - IMHO, of course!

Gee Eddy,

 

I guess glider pilots are all criminals!

A bit of balance please!

[SportCruiser]

Either way turning off a good running engine makes no sense

[Ed Cesnalis]

Either way turning off a good running engine makes no sense

 

 

There was a time when I didn't have the judgement to set up for a dead stick.  After an engine out I landed on a steep slope and bent my gear.  After that I started by turning off a good running engine on final after the runway was assured.  Then I tried base and then downwind and then from above the pattern and eventually from miles out.  

 

I don't think I'll blow another one because I have learned to under-estimate my glide and then slip or even s-turn as needed.  I have also learned how to handle a balloon when flaring.

 

In an emergency I find that instead of rising to the occasion I tend to sink to my level training.

 

I cut power on normal landings a-beam the numbers and practice for the engine out on almost every landing too.

[S4Flier]

Roger -- I know our Rotax 912's at idle provide a good bit of thrust but how much difference does this actually make in glide ratio versus a stopped engine?

[Flying Bozo]

The conversation in the cockpit tells me that the passenger was on the flight for the purpose of taking videos of a spin and got an extra measure of “thrill” when the pilot turned off the engine with no hope of a restart!!

[Farmer]

Engine out traiiing has an practial application in extending glide.  Standard practice in our cessna 150 was slow near stall, pull mixture, engine stops.  Then pull up as required to stop prop from windmilling.  Lower nose to best gulide for your weight.  This takes a calculation of where you are trying to glide to. Tailwind, slower seed to extend time in air, etc.  The windmilling prop takes away from your glide capability. 

 

Longest glide was about 12 minutes, from 14,100 feet to sea level in 1980.  On restart, key or point down, plan at least 1100 feet loss.  Takes about 130 MPH to jump start a 150, one blade, then another,  and then she starts.  No shock cooling was never an issue, however training is learning.

 

Never tried to restart the CTLS by pointing down as gearing might make that impossible, maybe someone will  know?

 

Farmer

[Howardnmn]

Pilot and Pax/Cinematographer had same surname. Father/son? Grandson? IMHO Drama was a setup: "uh oh, uh, oh" and "never done this before". Also, looks like he's landing in his own field and probably knows where his cows are

 

I would bet -- given 15,000 ft -- the wings would fall off before a 912uls would windmill-start

[krohmie]

Roger -- I know our Rotax 912's at idle provide a good bit of thrust but how much difference does this actually make in glide ratio versus a stopped engine?

Glide is better with the prop standing, than with the engine at idle and the prop windmilling.

 

Most people (me including) tend to land long with the prop standing, and I exercised this many times on the touring motorglider (G109B9  I flew before the CT.

 

For me this video shows how this is done, with reserve in altitude (hence the slip in short final)!

[Jim Meade]

Krohmie,

The link takes one to your site, but the video in question isn't obvious.

[krohmie]

My reference was to the video at the beginning of this thread.

 

There are no videos on my aviation-photography website.