FlyingMonkey Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 A smaller tank might weigh less ??? I almost included that, but it's nitpicking. You are talking 3-4lb difference, not the 50-100lb that the fuel itself would weigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Cesnalis Posted March 30, 2015 Report Share Posted March 30, 2015 I almost included that, but it's nitpicking. You are talking 3-4lb difference, not the 50-100lb that the fuel itself would weigh. You were using strong language (absolutes) while leaving a nit to be picked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Jefts Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 I continually see posts comparing fuel flow for the CTLSi vs the CTLS. Many times I see comments of savings of 1.3 gph to 1.5 gph with the CTLSi. I don't believe the savings are that much. Last summer when Farmer and I flew to Alaska I kept meticulous fuel records and the differences were not that great. Granted, if you power back and go slow at altitude the savings approached 1.1 gph but only at cruise. Over all the differences were not that great. Since the sport upgrade has been accomplished, I have not had the opportunity to fly side by side with a CTLS to compare fuel savings but I will remind you it makes a great deal of difference just how fast you are flying and at what altitude. Here are my comments from the Alaska trip using farmers CTLSi and Eric Swishers CTLS. Also, since the sport upgrade the fuel flow in the Si is more linear. There is no fuel flow increase (bump) at 5280 anymore. It is a gradual increase until 5500 rpm and then the fuel flow (bump) increase occurs which should then equate to the CTLS/SW fuel flow. Here are some actual fuel usage numbers from the Alaskan Adventure. Generally speaking Larry's CTLSi, 413L is more fuel efficient than Erics CTLS, 173LM. 413L is pitched at 5650rpm WOT and climbs well however 73LM is a little faster straight and level. 413L needs to stay below 5280rpm to realize fuel savings. That equates to about 5100rpm for 73LM. If you push the power up above 92% throttle (5280rpm's) 413L burns at the same rate as 73LM. Consequently, many of our flights were conducted at lower power settings. There were times when we were chasing good weather and kept the speed up so the final numbers are not based on the most fuel efficient flying. Generally the Si is a gallon per hour more efficient but at the end of the trip all things considered, the savings were somewhat less. After 74.7 block hours flown the CTLSi averaged 4.27 gph and the CTLS averaged 4.9gph. The surprise to me was that the CTLS, when flying slow, did pretty good on fuel. Remember this is based on block hours not inflight time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Hi Duane, This Friday we will do some real world testing. LSi verses SW. My guess is going to be about 1.1-1.3 gph better at 5200 rpm. I'll talk to Tom. How about Kearny? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 You have some mass confusion going on here. First, I'm not wrong. Even if the CTLSi is the best selling LSA (current market numbers say otherwise), that has nothing to do with how many airplanes they WOULD sell if the useful load was back up over 550lb. How do you figure useful load would increase with smaller tanks?!? Useful is goss weight - empty aircraft weight. A smaller tank would not change useful load at all, it would just give less options to fill the tanks with more fuel. Big tanks are great, and very useful. But whether a CTLSi has 34 gallon tanks or 3.4 gallon tanks, the useful load is still the same if the empty weight doesn't change! The ONLY things that can increase useful load are an increase in gross weight (not possible with LSA), or a decrease in empty weight. Period, full stop. Here are the sales numbers: http://www.bydanjohnson.com/Sidebar.cfm?Article_ID=1976 Flight Design remains the top dog. You say you assume people are not buying the Flight Design based on your useful load issue. That is a false assumption for two reason, 1. useful load is not the primary criteria in buying an aircraft and 2. there must be some other criteria that are causing MORE people to buy the FD than other aircraft. RANGE is more important than useful load, for example. If two 200 lb guys in a CTLSi with 20 gallons of fuel can fly 700 miles that's more capable and cost effective than an RV-12 with the same two guys flying 450 miles on 20 gallons of gas. Both are inside their useful loads and both are below the 1320 max gross. Remember, the CLTSi sport is 30% more fuel efficient. Other important characteristics causing people to choose the Flight Design over other aircraft with larger useful load is cabin size, the BRS, the lower cost per mile, higher climb rate and the quality of the product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Hi Duane, This Friday we will do some real world testing. LSi verses SW. My guess is going to be about 1.1-1.3 gph better at 5200 rpm. I'll talk to Tom. How about Kearny? Make sure to test the LSi with sport upgrade. Most of the CTLSi are upgraded now....and all the new ones selling have that.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Cat Posted March 31, 2015 Report Share Posted March 31, 2015 Here are the sales numbers: http://www.bydanjohnson.com/Sidebar.cfm?Article_ID=1976 Flight Design remains the top dog. You say you assume people are not buying the Flight Design based on your useful load issue. That is a false assumption for two reason, 1. useful load is not the primary criteria in buying an aircraft and 2. there must be some other criteria that are causing MORE people to buy the FD than other aircraft. RANGE is more important than useful load, for example. If two 200 lb guys in a CTLSi with 20 gallons of fuel can fly 700 miles that's more capable and cost effective than an RV-12 with the same two guys flying 450 miles on 20 gallons of gas. Both are inside their useful loads and both are below the 1320 max gross. Remember, the CLTSi sport is 30% more fuel efficient. Other important characteristics causing people to choose the Flight Design over other aircraft with larger useful load is cabin size, the BRS, the lower cost per mile, higher climb rate and the quality of the product. Indeed, interesting article, especially if you actually read it. We again post our Calendar 2014 tally that shows the success only in that year as a means of drawing attention to those brands and models performing the best in the last twelve months. We remind you that these charts use as their source the FAA registration (N-number) database, that is then carefully studied and corrected to make the most reliable report possible. However, two points: (1) this report will still have some errors as the database on which we rely has some faulty information ... though we believe this to be modest and, as noted, we correct it where we can; and, (2)aircraft registrations are not likely to be perfectly in sync with company records of sales for a variety of reasons. Other organizations ask companies to report deliveries and this, too, can have weaknesses, but we stand by our chart and the text report as the most factual details we can locate. It is also worth noting that we only attempt to tally the Top-20 for ranking yet we draw your attention to the "All Other Producers" category that, by itself, represents the largest segment at 15.7% or about one in six aircraft. Further, we repeat the chart notes that these figures are only fixed-wing airplanes, which leaves out weight shift, powered parachutes, gliders, gyroplanes, and other worthy categories. We wish to include them but the information has proven too unreliable so in the interest of the most accuracy we can report, we regretfully omit these interesting aircraft. As you can see from the nearby Calendar Year 2014 Report, CubCrafters again lead the field. They have done well for several years, however, the most notable movement of the year was from worldwide kit airplane manufacturer,Van's Aircraft who works with Synergy Air to build ready-to-fly RV-12s. Seemingly overnight, Van's appeared on our fleet chart and rocketed up to the #13 spot. Given the Van's RV-series popularity and the existence of a large number of RV-12 kits, it seems clear Van's will overtake several other producers in the years ahead and rise to near the top of the chart. More on that below. Another up and comer, not even on last year's fleet chart, is Progressive Aerodyne's Seayrey amphibian SLSA. Over many years this company has delivered more than 600 kit versions of its amphib. They won FAA audit approval to make SLSA models in late 2013 and went right to work filling demand. They've also won Chinese TDA approval and may break into that market, which many expect to explode. Clearly, Searey is leading the charge on LSA seaplanes even while some other interesting designs go through design and production exercises. Regular top players such as Flight Design, Tecnam, Aerotrek, American Legend, Czech Sport Aircraft, and Pipistrel — some of the top and best-established brands — also fared well in 2014. Yet another appearing for the first time is Quicksilver Aeronautics. They won FAA audit approval to sell SLSA versions of their immensely popular kit aircraft in late 2014 and notched up their first Special LSA sales. The company can boast more than 15,000 kit aircraft flying. A couple other honorable mentions go to Bristell (BRM Aero), which though new, is seeing good interest; Sling, which is rising and has a four seater kit to offer as well; and deluxe motorglider Phoenix. Their numbers were not big but these companies are ones to watch, we believe. Others holding up their brands include Evektor with its sleeker Harmony, Aeroprakt, and Jabiru (the last went through a manufacturing evolution and can offer even better pricing). As we show an image of the handsome Van's RV-12, we want to bring your attention to the small print alongside the Van's rank. This company, known for their kit-making prowess — with more than 9,000 delivered and flying — has registered 314 kit versions of RV-12 for a total impact of 364 aircraft. Were we to combine these, they would vault to second place, ready to challenge longtime leader Flight Design for the largest LSA fleet in the country. You may also note that our chart this year, for the first time, incorporates a number for "identifiable" kits, either as Experimental LSA (ELSA) or Experimental Amateur Built (EAB) models. The figure we felt we could correctly identify amounted to 797 airplanes (again ... no weight shift, powered parachutes, or gyros), which represent an additional 29%. If we could gather reliable details on the WS, PPC, and gyro fleet, we might add another 25% or so. Based on the greater EAB community in the USA, kit LSA aircraft may begin to add significant numbers and if we can tally them accurately we will continue to reference them. Image of Searey in flight by Searey Canada. As we consider Searey's strong performance in 2014, we again note that this is a company that cut its teeth with kit production. Over 600 have been sold and more than 500 are reportedly flying. Searey kit owners make a very strong and closeknit group of seaplane pilots with one of the largest amphibious populations anywhere. As most readers will know, we can expect several other interesting seaplanes in the years ahead, from companies like Icon, MVP, andVickers plus others. We are also aware of several other landplane LSA designs in the works and then will come electric aircraft (assuming FAA can find a way to invite these aircraft into the LSA fleet, which unfortunately is far from certain at this time). Yet all we present above is only the American market. The USA may be the largest single market but the rest of the world invites comparison to the famous 80/20 rule. The USA has roughly 20% of all recreational aircraft but other countries are excellent markets for lower-cost, fuel efficient, and modern airplanes. When we add them all, using powerplant production as a measuring stick, we believe the total market for light aircraft exceeded 3,000 airplanes in 2014. With GAMA reporting 986 single engine piston general aviation aircraft for the same year, it is clear the light aircraft segment is substantially larger and for these aircraft, we believe the global future is bright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DECZR Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 I red a lot of interesting things about a lot of matters but a little bit beside the subject: "Delivery delay and delivery problems"Tomorrow I will send a notification to FD to cancel the contract and to ask money back, after two years of wait. I will keep you informed about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Cat Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 I red a lot of interesting things about a lot of matters but a little bit beside the subject: "Delivery delay and delivery problems"Tomorrow I will send a notification to FD to cancel the contract and to ask money back, after two years of wait. I will keep you informed about. This may sound silly but could you import the airplane you want from the USA? The USA seems to get airplanes fairly regularly. Also could you buy from elsewhere in Europe? Perhaps a fairly new used airplane or one that was used as a demonstrator by the dealer? http://www.stardustaviation.co.uk A few years ago I sold my Tiger Moth to a guy from Germany. They took the wings off and shipped it in a container to Bremerhaven so it can be done. I really understand your level of frustration, especially when you are willing to spend a lot of money. Good luck and hope it works out for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DECZR Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 Thanks Top Cat! I agree, is silly... For me it's not clear what's happen, I will be happy to get money back. I decided to fly for a while with a rent plane and to look for an option in the future, not Flight Design at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 Thanks Top Cat! I agree, is silly... For me it's not clear what's happen, I will be happy to get money back. I decided to fly for a while with a rent plane and to look for an option in the future, not Flight Design at all! Tis a shame, they are fun little planes, just wish FD Germany support was a little bit better instead of holding things tight to the chest. Sometimes, as a mechanic, I am put off by the practice as there needs to be a certain level of trust between the front lines and HQ, but FD is not the only manufacturer that does this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 Brand new CTLSi ready now. grab it before it ships from Europe. coppercity will sell it to you. http://ctflier.com/index.php?/topic/3226-fully-loaded-americas-edition-ctlsi-available-soon/#entry43728 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunther Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 CAN THE THREAD PLEASE RETURN TO DELIVERY PROBLEMS?!?!?!?!?! That being screamed, as of today I am waiting 3 years and 2 months for a fully paid MC.... I am getting the run around and out-of-office responses from Mr. Betsch himself... To say I am frustrated, is an understatement.... If there are any encouraging thoughts out there, please let me know... tx! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralarcon Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 CAN THE THREAD PLEASE RETURN TO DELIVERY PROBLEMS?!?!?!?!?! That being screamed, as of today I am waiting 3 years and 2 months for a fully paid MC.... I am getting the run around and out-of-office responses from Mr. Betsch himself... To say I am frustrated, is an understatement.... If there are any encouraging thoughts out there, please let me know... tx! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbigs Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 CAN THE THREAD PLEASE RETURN TO DELIVERY PROBLEMS?!?!?!?!?! That being screamed, as of today I am waiting 3 years and 2 months for a fully paid MC.... I am getting the run around and out-of-office responses from Mr. Betsch himself... To say I am frustrated, is an understatement.... If there are any encouraging thoughts out there, please let me know... tx! 3 years for an MC? oh you are in Mexico. that may be your issue. contact Lone Mountain and talk to Ken Scherado in Las Vegas, NV he will get it done. You may have to take delivery in Las Vegas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 Get a lawyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunther Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 3 years for an MC? oh you are in Mexico. that may be your issue. contact Lone Mountain and talk to Ken Scherado in Las Vegas, NV he will get it done. You may have to take delivery in Las Vegas. TX! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Lee Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 I didn't even think they were making MC's any longer. You'd be better off switching it to a CTLS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Baker Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 The last I heard was that it was getting a redesign, but that was quite a while back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishAl Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 Delays of one, two and three years are very surprising and difficult to fathom. If the 20/80 rule described in this post is anywhere near accurate, then FD sold/delivered about 64 aircraft in the rest of the world in 2014. Put that together with the 16 in the USA and you get 80 aircraft worldwide. Is that anywhere near production capacity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anticept Posted May 9, 2015 Report Share Posted May 9, 2015 From what I gather, there is massive focus onthe china plant and on the C4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerebluut Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 I confirm /.... FD at the limit of the bankrupt. no money anymore to pay engine and instruments ... so no aircraft delivered (some structures are in Kamenz). I'm till waiting for delivery after 2 years and 7 months .... FD already announce false delay ... impossible to believe them after so many "promisses". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 I confirm /.... FD at the limit of the bankrupt. no money anymore to pay engine and instruments ... so no aircraft delivered (some structures are in Kamenz). I'm till waiting for delivery after 2 years and 7 months .... FD already announce false delay ... impossible to believe them after so many "promisses". While I understand the frustration, there is not really a reason to conclude an imminent default. USA airplanes seem to be flowing at a normal pace. So either FD is screwing the Europeans in favor of the Americans, or the FD dealers in Europe are inept and/or corrupt. Either way, anybody in Europe who has waited over a year past their original delivery date should be demanding a refund. If refunds are not quickly forthcoming, this is a perfect situation for a small-scale class action suit (assuming the EU has such remedies). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralarcon Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 That's right... Rotax build prepaid engines... as they are not prepaid by FD... they don't build them, the result is the same... FD doesn't have engines! That is exactly right, my brothers CTLSi fuselage (I learned from him) was already available and built in 2014, then it was mated to a brand new engine, when he bought the airplane. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishAl Posted December 8, 2015 Report Share Posted December 8, 2015 I confirm /.... FD at the limit of the bankrupt. Can you give us your source of this information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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