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Cost of insurance


AZAV8OR

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As a recent Cirrus to FD convert, I've been amazed at the delta in overall costs, except for one surprise: insurance.

 

I am carrying identical coverage on my '12 CTLS Skyview ($136k hull, $1 million smooth) as I have on my Cirrus SR20. Shockingly, the Cirrus is $1850/yr while the FD is $2700/yr! I've had a couple of FD pilots suggest that I'm overpaying, so I thought I'd throw out the question to the FD owners in general.

 

Am I paying too much? Example, if you can!

 

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

 

:D

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Kevin I have higher hull coverage so am paying a bit more so 2700 seems in line with mine. I too opted for smooth which upped it a few hundred bucks IIRC. Am hoping will go down some after showing them a bunch of hours experience in first year of ownership. Was new to lsa and was low time long time ppl when i applied.

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$1million each occurrence. Aircraft Liability Single Limit for Bodily Injury and Property Damage including Passengers, but Passenger Bodily Injury Limited within the Single Limit to $100K (each passenger).  Medical expense $5K each passenger.

Physical damage to aircraft $85K hull value (was only a bit more when it was for $100K)

 

Zero deductible.  No goofy exclusions

$1300 with 500+ hours in type.

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It's because it's an LSA. Insurance gets jittery when you check "No" for the box that says "Does the aircraft have a STANDARD airworthiness certificate?"

 

My Avemco or Chartis didn't seem to care either way... BUT the policies I received had the improper wording requiring a Standard certificate.  'Just them using old forms.  Each year, I've had to remind them to change the wording.  In the last one they just added a clause that says something like "if we say standard certificate, we mean for it to include Special airworthiness certificates, too, like those used for LSA".

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I started four years ago with a $2500/year bill on my 2008 CTLS.  Every year it lowered as I acquired PIC time in the aircraft.  Now, with 375 hours in the aircraft I just paid $1150 for the coming year.  It appears as if you need time in the aircraft itself to lower the premiums.  I use Falcon Insurance out of Texas.  Good Luck.

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$1million each occurrence. Aircraft Liability Single Limit for Bodily Injury and Property Damage including Passengers, but Passenger Bodily Injury Limited within the Single Limit to $100K (each passenger). Medical expense $5K each passenger.

Physical damage to aircraft $85K hull value (was only a bit more when it was for $100K)

 

Zero deductible. No goofy exclusions

$1300 with 500+ hours in type.

Thank you Tim for the specific response. Your liabllity is not smooth which as I stated above I think was worth around 400 on my quote. I have twice the hull value on mine, smooth, and 8 hours in type when I bought. So I'm not sure pricing in high 2000s is out of line. Considering there are I think only about five companies that write aviation insurance, the specifics of the coverage and pilot experience are more important in my view than the broker used. I believe all brokers call the same four companies. Avemco is a direct model so you need to check them directly. Will be interesting to see where Kevin shakes out. I renew mine in the fall and will report back what improvement time in type gave me.

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Our specifics:

 

Rental and instruction (commercial insurance)

 

110k agreed hull value

1 million liability per occurrence

5k deductible in motion

500 deductible not in motion

100k per passenger liability

1,000 medical payments

Waiver of subrogation

Additionally, on behalf of our renters: 100k per person* liability, 100k property damage.

 

Yearly cost (approximate, ours is per hour): 6,538

 

*Very important: per passenger, and per person liability mean two different things. Per person means 100k liability for each person injured. Per passenger means 100k liability for the aircraft passengers, and the full 1 million liability coverage for anyone injured outside of the aircraft.

 

When you get insurance, you need to take the time to READ AND UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU HAVE. There's a couple insurance policies out there that have a family exclusion clause that you have to buy out (costs extra to remove it). Generally such clauses will limit coverage for your FAMILY members that are riding with you. Some might say 15% family exclusion, others might exclude outright.

 

If the insurance is cheap, that's probably because it has some ugly clauses in it.

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As a recent Cirrus to FD convert, I've been amazed at the delta in overall costs, except for one surprise: insurance.

 

I am carrying identical coverage on my '12 CTLS Skyview ($136k hull, $1 million smooth) as I have on my Cirrus SR20. Shockingly, the Cirrus is $1850/yr while the FD is $2700/yr! I've had a couple of FD pilots suggest that I'm overpaying, so I thought I'd throw out the question to the FD owners in general.

 

Am I paying too much? Example, if you can!

 

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

 

:D

Thanks to all for the comments. Based on my current low hours in the CTLS, coverage ($1mm smooth) and desire for a stable carrier, I'm probably right in the ballpark. Hopefully, next year will get better.

 

:D

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$1500 for $10,000 hull coverage - Yup, thats correct  - I am not missing a 0 there.  Not easy getting insurance here in the Philippines  haha. I could up it to 100k but that would cost me 15k / yr.  Yikes!!   So, its pretty much a total loss for me if anything should happen. 

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Spoke to two brokers here at Oshkosh today. If you want smooth it looks like only USAIG will quote it in LSA. Thats who I have and who I suspect your quote is from Kevin. There are other choices if you are Ok without it and I'm sure its a good idea to shop them through a broker.

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Spoke to two brokers here at Oshkosh today. If you want smooth it looks like only USAIG will quote it in LSA. Thats who I have and who I suspect your quote is from Kevin. There are other choices if you are Ok without it and I'm sure its a good idea to shop them through a broker.

I went with Allianz.

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I was wondering too, so I looked it up:

Your policy will always have a maximum limit for liability coverage that can be either “sub-limit” or “smooth” coverage. An example of sub-limit coverage is a policy that provides for $1,000,000 per occurrence and $200,000 per passenger. This does not mean that you have $1,000,000 to pay all claims.

Rather, the insurance company will pay a maximum of $1,000,000 per occurrence, but will only pay each passenger up to a maximum of $200,000. Thus, for an accident in which only one passenger is injured, the insurance company’s maximum exposure is $200,000, exclusive of any amounts it spends on your defense.

On the other hand, smooth limit coverage of $1,000,000 per occurrence will provide up to $1,000,000 of coverage regardless of the number of passengers. This coverage presents a greater risk to the insurance company since it could have to pay the full policy limits even if only one person is injured. As a result, greater risk means that the premium for this coverage is going to be more expensive than the premium for a policy containing sub-limits.

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Thanks Tim for responding. Think of it this way. In our planes you have 2 people, pilot and passenger. If you are the pilot you are unlikely to sue yourself after an accident (remember this is liability portion we are talking about) so there are two people who might sue you, your passenger (if there is one) and someone outside the plane who is injured. If you dont have smooth, and we know you're not suing yourself, you're really only covered for 100k (most lsa policies seem to be 1,000,000 with 100k sublimit), so that big fancy 1,000,000 policy is really only a 100,000 policy if no-one is hurt on the ground. Thats makes a big difference to the insurance company (and why only one, USAIG, offers it in LSA). Now (I need to check this) if someone is hurt on the ground I don't believe the sublimit applies there so the full million is available to pay a liability claim (to be shared with the passenger who again is only entitled to max 100k). The incidence of injury is much lower outside the plane in an accident i assume, so the insurance company is just underwriting that risk. So you see to just divide premium by hull value to compare policies is really misguided. You need to be sure first the coverages are apples to apples, and then other factors play in like time in type, overall time, time is last 12 months, pilot's ratings, and whether you are existing customer and for how long (hopefully claim free). Hope this helps. I'm no insurance expert so please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere.

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Tim and Paul M, thanks for this info.  Knowing about "smooth" eliminates a portion of the "shell game" insurance companies play.  I try to read the fine print on most matters for this reason but didn't do it this time - caveat emptor! Those who have trusted friends who know how the insurance game is played are fortunate.

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Thanks Tim for responding. Think of it this way. In our planes you have 2 people, pilot and passenger. If you are the pilot you are unlikely to sue yourself after an accident (remember this is liability portion we are talking about) so there are two people who might sue you, your passenger (if there is one) and someone outside the plane who is injured. If you dont have smooth, and we know you're not suing yourself, you're really only covered for 100k (most lsa policies seem to be 1,000,000 with 100k sublimit), so that big fancy 1,000,000 policy is really only a 100,000 policy if no-one is hurt on the ground. Thats makes a big difference to the insurance company (and why only one, USAIG, offers it in LSA). Now (I need to check this) if someone is hurt on the ground I don't believe the sublimit applies there so the full million is available to pay a liability claim (to be shared with the passenger who again is only entitled to max 100k). The incidence of injury is much lower outside the plane in an accident i assume, so the insurance company is just underwriting that risk. So you see to just divide premium by hull value to compare policies is really misguided. You need to be sure first the coverages are apples to apples, and then other factors play in like time in type, overall time, time is last 12 months, pilot's ratings, and whether you are existing customer and for how long (hopefully claim free). Hope this helps. I'm no insurance expert so please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere.

As said before, even this requires caution. You describe per pax. Per person liability, as some policies are written, means that all persons, inside and outside, have that sublimit each.

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