Doug G. Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 I am pondering fulfilling the 2020 mandate by 1) updating my Garmin GTX 330 to 330ES, 2) installing a GDL 39R which will write directly to my 696. Comments and thoughts would be appreciated. (I am not sure yet what this means in terms of antennas. The GDL 39R is so new the Garmin avionics guy didn't have any info.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJFlyer Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Hi Doug, I am in the same boat as you, with 696 and GTX330. However, I think you need a certified WAAS GPS source to drive the Garmin GTX 330ES. Per Garmin's website, your setup is similar to option 3, except I assume like me, you do not have an IFR certified WAAS GPS already: Option 3If you fly with a Garmin portable or an iPad® with Garmin Pilot™, you have an affordable alternative to receiving ADS-B traffic and subscription-free weather. To meet the ADS-B mandate, you'll first need to upgrade your GNS 430/530 with WAAS capability, and make sure your GTX 330 ES transponder has been updated with the latest software, which is available for free from Garmin. Then, by adding the cost-effective GDL 39, you'll also be able to see weather and traffic data on your non-certified device.What you need for this solution: GNS 430/530 Upgrade to WAAS - $3,395 GTX 330 Mode-S ES Transponder Free Software Update (shop labor fees may apply) GDL 39 Portable ADS-B Receiver - $699 Karl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LS Bruce Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Check out NavWorks. Seems to be the best bang for the buck, $2400 at Oshkosh. It contains a certified WAAS gps and works with most unmodified transponders. Will display weather and traffic on your 696. Meets all 2020 mandates for ADS-B Out. http://www.navworx.com/experimental-aircraft.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted August 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 This is from the Garmin site - Thr GDL 39 can provide highly accurate WAAS GPS location information to your mobile device — such as an iPad® — using Bluetooth technology. This provides your device with the precision you’d expect from our aviation-grade navigation devices, updating at a rate of up to 5 times per second depending on the capability of the device used. The GDL becomes the GPS source. The 696 uses a wired connection, not Bluetooth, but that in itself shouldn't mean anything. Garmin customer service said the setup would meet the 2020 standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted August 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Bruce, I don't think you can get a 330 to work without extended squitter, can you? Also does the WAAS source have to be certified? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted August 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Oh, and I heard $1200 to upgrade the 330 to ES. (I did not verify this with Garmin.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tip Posted August 5, 2014 Report Share Posted August 5, 2014 Hey Bruce, Where would you place it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LS Bruce Posted August 6, 2014 Report Share Posted August 6, 2014 Doug, The NavWorks reads the data it needs, (squawk and pressure alt) from the serial output of a unmodified 330 or 327 transponder. It contains a ADS-B out transmitter. Your transponder remains simply a transponder. The best part about this system is you don't need an expensive 430 WAAS to be a certified source. BTW, the GDL-39 is an excellent receiver, but can not be a source for ADS-B out (transmitter). And yes, after 2020, the GPS source needs to be certified, but not so for now, the next 5 years. Tip, I would think the box can fit behind your 696. A simple bracket needs to be made. This is not the way I went. I spent even less! My setup is a 795, fed from a GDL-39 via Bluetooth. Ground stations triggered to send me traffic by a SkyGuardTXT ADS-B out transmit only. $975. This setup will probably be a $975 door stop after 2020, but free weather and full traffic for 5 years is worth it for me! http://adsb.skyguardtwx.com/uat-transmitter/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted August 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2014 If I was only looking for a temporary solution, I can get the GDL 39R to give me ADS-B in. I may do that. I don't want to add another panel (iPad) and to replace my 696 adds pretty significantly to the cost. I am hoping to avoid the -- until 2020 solution-- if I can. I'd like to find a setup that can be wired and meets 2020 standards. Like I said, Garmin told me over the phone that this would do it. I also realize that it is entirely possible that the guy on the phone was not an expert on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S3flyer Posted August 6, 2014 Report Share Posted August 6, 2014 Doug -- I'm not seeing what your using as a position source to you 330ES. Are you assuming the 39R will feed the appropriate info? I don't believe this will work based on my conversations but I'd suggest talking to Garmin Team X. They are VERY responsive and will give you tech details that will help you design a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LS Bruce Posted August 6, 2014 Report Share Posted August 6, 2014 Just to be clear... The NavWorks system IS 2020 compliant. ($2400+antennas) The SkyGuard system is NOT, and probably never will be, 2020 compliant. (But only $975!) But, click on the links and read up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted August 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2014 Ok, I will try that. I just read the fine print on the GDL 39R and although it has a WAAS GPS receiver that will give position to the 696, it is not certified. Navworks isn't either - at least not yet. The 39 might be worth a temporary install. It looks like I am looking for something that doesn't exist without major panel changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug G. Posted August 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2014 Oops, I must have been looking at the Skyward system when I read it was not certified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runtoeat Posted August 6, 2014 Report Share Posted August 6, 2014 The Navworks is one way to go. Another possibility is to go with the Skyguard TWX Vision Pro. https://ifly.adventurepilot.com/shop-t136/skyguardtwx-vision-pro-ads-b-transceiver-special.aspx LS Bruce, since the NavWorks is $2400, wouldn't the SkyguardTWX transceiver be the best deal if one is looking for ADS B In/Out that talks to the iFly GPS, iPad or Android tablet? $1395 for ADS B In/Out and has WAAS GPS and uses one's non-ES transponder so no new ES transponder needed - same as the NavWorks does. No need to pay for and find a spot for another piece of equipment such as GDL39 or other ADS B "in" unit with this. Based on your comments, wonder if you have inside info to know certification of Skyguard will not happen? The company indicates this system is currently undergoing FAA Cert testing and states it will be certified by 2020. For those wanting currently certified ADS B In/Out that talks to Garmin GPS, an option here is to purchase the Garmin GDL88 which does basically what NavWorks and Skyguard do but this is a 2020 certified, dedicated, built-in Garmin device which is designed to run 696 (wired), 796 (bluetooth) and advanced Garmin devices. I was given an estimate of $8000 for purchase and installation of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LS Bruce Posted August 6, 2014 Report Share Posted August 6, 2014 Dick, I chose the SkyGuard transmitter for my plane. It works great! It locks on to ground stations at 500ft AGL here in semi-flatland Ohio. The FAA is nice enough (for now) to allow me to be part of the ADS-B system and feed my GDL-39 receiver full traffic data. SkyGuard has a few challenges to be 2020 compliant. As written now, the FAA mandates no portable units, no portable antennas, pressure altitude transmitted, certified gps source. The SkyGuard has issues with all these. I talked at length with the FAA in Oshkosh to make sure I wasn't doing anything illegal! The expert in ADS-B compliance showed me transmission data from my last 10 flights! Yikes... Big brother is watching! They will allow non-compliant transmitters for now... So, maybe the FAA will change these mandates by 2020, but not likely. The FAA really does need to know your gps position for mission critical sequencing. More likely my box will be a door stop in 2020. But, $200/year ($975/5) is cheap to get full traffic data till 2020. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted August 6, 2014 Report Share Posted August 6, 2014 Doug, Let me start here: I have the GDL-39, 796 and 330ES mode S Transponder. I spoke at length with Bethany from NavWorx and also Lancaster Avionics who does my avionics work. NavWorx------The NavWorx ADS600B will give you ADS-B IN/OUT now for $2400 if acquired by weeks end. By 2020 an upgrade to this unit will be needed which adds a Certified WAAS GPS. They will do this for $500.00 or less with a two week turn around. You can get the Certified unit (ADS 600BG) now and be done with it, no upgrade needed. I believe that unit cost $3800.00. Lancaster Avionics-------- The GDL39 would be removed (not needed with above units.) The GDL antenna would be kept with an additional Certified antenna needed to be compliant and mounted on top of the aircraft or on the glair shield. The additional antenna cost $390. Installation cost is maxed at $2000.00. The cost can be much less depending on the difficulty of installation. Lancaster avionics is now booked until October 2014, mostly all ADS-B installation of one type or another. By the 2020 mandate, prices at avionics shops will rise due to demand and the wait can be predicted to be somewhere in the one year range. The above units and installation would cost, figuring $1500 for installation, $3939.00 now. Add the maximum upgrade of $500 for the certified WASS/GPS by the 2020 mandate and the total cost rises to$4439. These prices can be a little higher or lower, again depending on installation. We are similarly equipped, so I thought this would be helpful. I don't know what I'm going to do at this point, as I get most of the traffic and wx now with the 39. Also, LSA shops that can do the installation may not have as long a waiting time as the Avionics shops that also work on Certified aircraft as 2020 approaches. Also, this mandate needs an STC by 2020 and there are no STC's for LSA's as far as I know? The FAA will need to address this at a later date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmInce Posted August 6, 2014 Report Share Posted August 6, 2014 Technologically, a lot can happen in 12 months. 2020 is a long way off, in comparison. By 2019, I would be willing to bet that systems will become more compact, better and cheaper, not to mention, the FAA making some tweaks before the official implementation. Rather than spending big bucks now, I am going to wait and see how it all shakes out. The drawback is, until then, I will not have ADS-B available to use. All the more reason to use ATC flight following services (radar). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted August 6, 2014 Report Share Posted August 6, 2014 Doug, NavWorx------The NavWorx ADS600B will give you ADS-B IN/OUT now for $2400 if acquired by weeks end. By 2020 an upgrade to this unit will be needed which adds a Certified WAAS GPS. They will do this for $500.00 or less with a two week turn around. You can get the Certified unit (ADS 600BG) now and be done with it, no upgrade needed. I believe that unit cost $3800.00. Um...why would you pay $3800 for capability you can get for $2900? To get it RFN? nobody needs ADS-B RFN, the mandate is 5 years out. I think the NavWorx pricing model is broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted August 6, 2014 Report Share Posted August 6, 2014 The cost for the ADS600BG is $3600. I thought around $3800. I called NavWorks again a few minutes ago and asked why the large discrepancy in price between the B and BG model. The reason is that their paying a premium for the Cert. WASS/GPS at this time. And if you want it now, you'll pay the price. "NW is just passing on the cost as it is now". According to our conversation they will be paying, much less for the Cert. WAAS/GPS in a few years. " If you wait until near the deadline, you'll pay the $2900 for The ADS600BG model" plus cost of an antenna. So waiting and hoping to get the Certified ADS600BG (IN/OUT) installed as time draws near, for around $2900, seems like a good option, especially if you're getting ADS-B "IN" now. Prices will invariably change. Some folks may choose not to wait if the cost difference fits into their budget. I'm a user of flight following and coupled with ADS-B "IN" waiting for "OUT" makes sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted August 6, 2014 Report Share Posted August 6, 2014 Why do they think the cert will be cheaper in the future? That never seems to happen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LS Bruce Posted August 6, 2014 Report Share Posted August 6, 2014 If I had the 330ES mode S Transponder, I'd be shopping for a older, but certified, gps. All you need is the location data stream to feed the 330ES. Like an old King or Bendix unit. It doesn't even need a display. Hide it somewhere a let it stream. You are done for 2020! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocRon Posted August 7, 2014 Report Share Posted August 7, 2014 Gentlemen, I just hope to be ALIVE by 2020, flying as well would be even better. I'll stick with my GDL39 and Garmin 696 until then. In 2019 or so somebody will pull a rabbit out of their hat that will solve everything for a reasonable sum. That's the way I'm willing to bet. You can remind me of my error in five years if you want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyingMonkey Posted August 7, 2014 Report Share Posted August 7, 2014 If I had the 330ES mode S Transponder, I'd be shopping for a older, but certified, gps. All you need is the location data stream to feed the 330ES. Like an old King or Bendix unit. It doesn't even need a display. Hide it somewhere a let it stream. You are done for 2020! It has to be a "high precision" GPS, which means essentially WAAS. A lot of the older avionics, even the original Garmin 430, are not WAAS/high precision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
procharger Posted August 8, 2014 Report Share Posted August 8, 2014 One comment ain't the FAA grand 6 years from now everything might be different, I am waiting, I don't trust nothing they say that is 6 years in the making.I will just use see and avoid method for the time being. nuff said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S3flyer Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 Dick, I chose the SkyGuard transmitter for my plane. It works great! It locks on to ground stations at 500ft AGL here in semi-flatland Ohio. The FAA is nice enough (for now) to allow me to be part of the ADS-B system and feed my GDL-39 receiver full traffic data. SkyGuard has a few challenges to be 2020 compliant. As written now, the FAA mandates no portable units, no portable antennas, pressure altitude transmitted, certified gps source. The SkyGuard has issues with all these. I talked at length with the FAA in Oshkosh to make sure I wasn't doing anything illegal! The expert in ADS-B compliance showed me transmission data from my last 10 flights! Yikes... Big brother is watching! They will allow non-compliant transmitters for now... So, maybe the FAA will change these mandates by 2020, but not likely. The FAA really does need to know your gps position for mission critical sequencing. More likely my box will be a door stop in 2020. But, $200/year ($975/5) is cheap to get full traffic data till 2020. It is certainly possible that SkyGuard won't be an option in 2020 but it is also possible it will be. Don at SkyGuard is working on the TSO and is in contact with the FAA. As of August 7th: About 2 months ago, the FAA told us of some changes they wanted us to make in the ADS-B transmitted message. We did this with some firmware changes and some minor modifications to our hardware. Unfortunately, when any changes are made the FAA requires all testing to be repeated. We are in that phase and should have it completed in a few weeks. Then we must prepare all the reports and documentation again. This will take a month or 2, so we hope by sometime this fall, we will submit our request for TSO certification again. Then it will be up to the FAA to review and respond again. Not sure how long they will take. Don SkyGuardTWX He plans to offer a TSO upgrade kit when finalized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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